[86600] in North American Network Operators' Group
Fwd: [Arch-econ] Vint an interview you did with me in 1997 is being quoted on Nanog as reason to support the current so callednet neutrality bill
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Gordon Cook)
Fri Nov 11 10:44:04 2005
Cc: Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>
From: Gordon Cook <cook@cookreport.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:43:31 -0500
To: nanog@merit.edu
Errors-To: owner-nanog@merit.edu
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thank you Vint.
folks please note Vint's remarks on common carriage. This stuff gets
very complicate very fast and i do not have it all at the tip of my
tongue by any means. Vint did engage with Fred Goldstein, Andrew
Odlyzko, David Isenberg and others in a discussion of this about 3
weeks ago.
Please note also Vint's remark:
> If ISPs were to inspect packets and interfere with those of
> competing application providers (voice, video), I would consider
> that a violation of the principle of network neutrality.
I have NOT been reading this bill carefully myself
dangerous i know. BUT if i understand it correctly this is precisely
what this bill would allow and this is NOT I think what any of us
want. For whatever my opinion is worth I hope you all will oppose
this loud and clear.
=============================================================
The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ
08618 USA
609 882-2572 (PSTN) 415 651-4147 (Lingo) cook@cookreport.com
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info: http://cookreport.com/subscriptions.shtml IMS and an Internet
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Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Vint Cerf" <vint@google.com>
> Date: November 11, 2005 10:10:40 AM EST
> To: "'economics of ip networks'"
> Subject: Re:Vint an interview you did with me in 1997 is
> beingquoted on Nanog as reason to support the current so callednet
> neutrality bill
> Reply-To: economics of ip networks
>
>
> Gordon,
>
> today, you are typically charged based on the maximum capacity of
> the access circuit you "purchase" - that's flat rate. At the time
> (8 years ago) people wanted to have the burst rate but didn't want
> to pay for the unused capacity so we instituted a tiered pricing
> system that allowed them, e.g., to burst at 45 Mb/s but only pay
> for the effectively used capacity. As I recall, we used something
> like the 95th percentile as a measurement of capacity used - in
> other words, you paid for that capacity below which 95% of all
> sampled rates fell. I don't recall all the details but there may
> have been a fixed/variable structure. A fixed amount for having
> access to burst capacity of a certain size and a variable amount
> depending on average rate. the implication is that if you purchased
> a burst T1 and used half on the average you might pay less than if
> you purchased burst T3 and used only a half T1's worth. The
> somewhat higher charge would be a consequence of having access to a
> higher absolute rate/capacity. This idea may still have legs today
> although as speeds increase, and prices fall, it may not be nearly
> the same issue as it was eight years ago. You might ask MCI and
> other ISPs what their pricing structures are today for some
> perspective.
>
> I do not see that tiered pricing is a neutrality threat. Neutrality
> has to do with differentiation with regard to the actual content
> carried (or service provided). If ISPs were to inspect packets and
> interfere with those of competing application providers (voice,
> video), I would consider that a violation of the principle of
> network neutrality. One might think of the notion of neutrality as
> the 21st C version of common carriage although I hesitate to draw
> the comparison if only because of the complex way in which "common
> carriage" concept and rules have evolved.
>
> vint
>
>
> Vinton G Cerf
> Chief Internet Evangelist
> Google/Regus
> Herndon, VA 20171
>
>
>
> vint@google.com
> www.google.com
>
>
>
> From: On Behalf Of Gordon Cook
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 9:40 AM
> To: economics of ip networks
> Subject: Vint an interview you did with me in 1997 is beingquoted
> on Nanog as reason to support the current so callednet neutrality bill
>
> Any comments?
>
> Any comments from anyone?
>
> From: sean@donelan.com
> Subject: Re: [Latest draft of Internet regulation bill]
> Date: November 11, 2005 12:58:40 AM EST
> To: christopher.morrow@mci.com
> Cc: nanog@merit.edu
>
>
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, Christopher L. Morrow wrote:
>
>> oops ;) my point wasn't that bandwidth wasn't necessary over X
>> speed, it
>> was that the main motivator for consumer purchase was no long
>> bandwidth
>> but price alone.
>>
>
> In 1997, Vint Cerf was advocating the necessity of usage based pricing
> when he was still with MCI.
>
> http://www.cookreport.com/05.10.shtml
> Although MCI has not yet made a formal announcement via a press
> release,
> Cerf explained that "we are plainly discussing this with you, Gordon,
> and your readers." The MCI move is the outcome of what Cerf describes
> as a crunch between the Internet's flat rate pricing model and usage
> patterns where both the amount of use and disparity between use by
> applications has increased dramatically.
>
> Will consumers prefer to pay higher flat rate charges for
> everything, or
> prefer different pricing models when they access applications which
> require dramatically different service levels to include the cost as
> part of an application specific fee?
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Gordon Cook <cook@cookreport.com>
>> Date: November 11, 2005 9:11:17 AM EST
>> To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
>> Cc: nanog@merit.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Latest draft of Internet regulation bill]
>>
>>
>>
>> Be careful Owen - i think you may be falling into a libertarian
>> trap - worrisome because I respect highly things i have seen you
>> write in past.
>>
>> Think about what you are saying: " Something to consider about
>> this proposed "regulation"... It is actually
>>
>>> in many ways proposed "deregulation"
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes it is indeed. It frees the duopoly to do whatever it wants.
>> And Whittacre has said what he wants and what he will do quite
>> plainly -- has he not? He will charge google and yahoo and skype
>> for using his networks.
>>
>> Here is how this legislation is being read in London at a public
>> telco blog recently launched by DRKW the large investment bank:
>> http://telcotech.drkw.com/blog/archives/2005/11/will_evil_preva.html
>>
>> "For all of our sakes lets hope that the telcos are not successful
>> in their lobbying effort in the US. If they are successful, you
>> can bet that your investment in the fixed telecoms utilities is
>> safer but innovation on the internet is in jeopardy - which do you
>> think creates more incremental future value in the world ultimately?"
>>
>> Vint Cerf is on my economics of IP networks private mail list. The
>> DRKW blog post partially cited above came in part from a public
>> item comment of Vint's that i posted day before yesterday to my
>> private list. It is fascinating that Sean Donelan whom I have
>> known and respected since 1991 dug that 1997 item quote from Vint
>> from my archives. Donelan: "In 1997, Vint Cerf was advocating the
>> necessity of usage based pricing when he was still with MCI.
>>
>> http://www.cookreport.com/05.10.shtml
>>
>> COOK Report: Recall the date. This is PRE stupid network and again
>> VINT is taking the pre-internet pre stupid network telco point of
>> view. I'll post this to my list and see if Vint has anything that
>> he wants to say about this 8 year old opinion.
>>
>> Owen, do you want some legislation that gives the CEO of ATT/SBC
>> the world largest dinosaur a blank check to do as he wishes with
>> *HIS* network. This bills language is HIGHLY deceptive. I too
>> despise government incompetence but giving Whittacre a blank check
>> is IMHO much worse. But don't take my word for it - check out
>> DRKW's analyst's opinion. Fred Goldstein also has a pretty good
>> analysis. I probably will not further respond to this thread
>> discussion. Please forgive me but I am swamped with many things
>> that demand attention.
>>
>> =============================================================
>> The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ
>> 08618 USA
>> 609 882-2572 (PSTN) 415 651-4147 (Lingo) cook@cookreport.com
>> Subscription
>> info: http://cookreport.com/subscriptions.shtml IMS and an Internet
>> Economic & Business Model at: http://cookreport.com/14.09.shtml
>> =============================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 11, 2005, at 1:38 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Something to consider about this proposed "regulation"... It is
>>> actually
>>> in many ways proposed "deregulation". This bill removes more
>>> authority
>>> from the FCC and state and local governments than it grants. It
>>> provides
>>> a very minimal framework of regulation, then, except for taxation
>>> and
>>> a couple of other minor consumer protections, says "The
>>> government shall
>>> butt the hell out."
>>>
>>> That's why I like it.
>>>
>>
>> But Owen - what if getting evil gov't out gives Whittacre a blank
>> check?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Owen
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">thank you Vint.<DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>folks please note Vint's =
remarks on common carriage.=A0 This stuff gets very complicate very fast =
and i do not have it all at the tip of my tongue by any means.=A0 Vint =
did engage with Fred Goldstein, Andrew Odlyzko, David Isenberg and =
others in a discussion of this about 3 weeks ago.</DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Please note also Vint's =
remark:</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"text-align: -khtml-left;"><SPAN =
class=3D"966534214-11112005"><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 10px;">If ISPs were to =
inspect packets and interfere with those of competing application =
providers (voice, video), I would consider that a violation of the =
principle of network =
neutrality.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I=A0 have NOT been reading =
this bill carefully myself=A0</DIV><DIV>dangerous i know.=A0 BUT if i =
understand it correctly this is precisely what this bill would allow and =
this is NOT I think what any of us want.=A0 For whatever my opinion is =
worth I hope you all=A0 will oppose this loud and =
clear.</DIV><DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
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normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
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"><DIV>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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PAN></SPAN> </DIV><DIV><BR><DIV>Begin forwarded message:</DIV><BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>From: =
</B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica">"Vint Cerf" <<A =
href=3D"mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</A>></FONT></DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>Date: =
</B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica">November 11, 2005 10:10:40 AM EST</FONT></DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>To: </B></FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica">"'economics of ip networks'"</FONT></DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>Subject: =
</B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica"><B>Re:Vint an interview you did with me in 1997 is =
beingquoted on Nanog as reason to support the current so callednet =
neutrality bill</B></FONT></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>Reply-To: </B></FONT><FONT =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">economics =
of ip networks=A0</FONT></DIV><DIV style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: =
14px; "><BR></DIV> <BR class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> <DIV =
dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><SPAN class=3D"966534214-11112005"><FONT =
face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Gordon,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> =
<DIV dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><SPAN class=3D"966534214-11112005"><FONT =
face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></FONT></SPAN>=A0</DIV> <DIV =
dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><SPAN class=3D"966534214-11112005"><FONT =
face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">today, you are typically =
charged based on the maximum capacity of the access circuit you =
"purchase" - that's flat rate. At the time (8 years ago) people wanted =
to have the burst rate but didn't want to pay for the unused capacity so =
we instituted a tiered pricing system that allowed them, e.g., to burst =
at 45 Mb/s but only pay for the effectively used capacity. As I recall, =
we used something like the 95th percentile as a measurement of capacity =
used - in other words, you paid for that capacity below which 95% of all =
sampled rates fell. I don't recall all the details but there may have =
been a fixed/variable structure. A fixed amount for having access to =
burst capacity of a certain size and a variable amount depending on =
average rate. the implication is that if you purchased a burst T1 and =
used half on the average you might pay less than if you purchased burst =
T3 and used only a half T1's worth. The somewhat higher charge would be =
a consequence of having access to a higher absolute rate/capacity. This =
idea may still have legs today although as speeds increase, and prices =
fall, it may not be nearly the same issue as it was eight years ago. You =
might ask MCI and other ISPs what their pricing structures are today for =
some perspective.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><SPAN class=3D"966534214-11112005"><FONT face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></FONT></SPAN>=A0</DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><SPAN class=3D"966534214-11112005"><FONT face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">I do not see that tiered pricing is a =
neutrality threat. Neutrality has to do with differentiation with regard =
to the actual content carried (or service provided). If ISPs were to =
inspect packets and interfere with those of competing application =
providers (voice, video), I would consider that a violation of the =
principle of network neutrality. One might think of the notion of =
neutrality as the 21st C=A0version of common carriage although I =
hesitate to draw the comparison if only because of the complex way in =
which "common carriage" concept and rules have =
evolved.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><SPAN =
class=3D"966534214-11112005"><FONT face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></FONT></SPAN>=A0</DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><SPAN =
class=3D"966534214-11112005"><FONT face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2">vint</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><SPAN =
class=3D"966534214-11112005"><FONT face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></FONT></SPAN>=A0</DIV> <DIV>=A0</DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><DIV dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><FONT face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"2">Vinton G Cerf</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Chief Internet =
Evangelist</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><FONT =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Google/Regus</FONT></DIV><DIV dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"2"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
10px;"></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><FONT =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Herndon, VA 20171</FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV> <DIV =
dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><FONT class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial"=
size=3D"2"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
10px;"><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV =
dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></FONT>=A0</DIV=
> <DIV dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><A =
href=3D"mailto:vint@google.com">vint@google.com</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV =
dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><FONT face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><A =
href=3D"http://www.google.com/">www.google.com</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV =
dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left">=A0</DIV></DIV> <DIV>=A0</DIV><BR> <DIV =
class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" lang=3D"en-us" dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><HR tabindex=3D"-1"> <FONT face=3D"Tahoma" =
size=3D"2"><B>From:</B>=A0=A0<B>On Behalf Of </B>Gordon =
Cook<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 11, 2005 9:40 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
economics of ip networks<BR><B>Subject:</B>=A0Vint an interview you did =
with me in 1997 is beingquoted on Nanog as reason to support the current =
so callednet neutrality bill<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN></DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Any comments?</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px"><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">Any comments from anyone?</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px"><SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN><B>From: </B><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN><A =
href=3D"mailto:sean@donelan.com">sean@donelan.com</A></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN><B>Subject: </B><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN><B>Re: [Latest draft of Internet =
regulation bill]</B></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN><B>Date: </B><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN>November 11, 2005 12:58:40 AM =
EST</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN><B>To: </B><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN><A =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.morrow@mci.com">christopher.morrow@mci.com</A><=
/DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN><B>Cc: </B><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-tab"></SPAN><A =
href=3D"mailto:nanog@merit.edu">nanog@merit.edu</A></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px =
Helvetica"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">On Fri, 11 Nov 2005, =
Christopher L. Morrow wrote:</DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">oops ;) my point wasn't that bandwidth wasn't =
necessary over X speed, it</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">was that =
the main motivator for consumer purchase was no long bandwidth</DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">but price alone.</DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">In 1997, Vint Cerf was advocating the =
necessity of usage based pricing</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">when =
he was still with MCI.</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: =
0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><A =
href=3D"http://www.cookreport.com/05.10.shtml">http://www.cookreport.com/0=
5.10.shtml</A></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Although MCI has not yet =
made a formal announcement via a press release,</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Cerf explained that "we are plainly discussing =
this with you, Gordon,</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">and your =
readers." The MCI move is the outcome of what Cerf describes</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">as a crunch between the Internet's flat rate =
pricing model and usage</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">patterns where =
both the amount of use and disparity between use by</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">applications has increased dramatically.</DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px; FONT: 12px =
Helvetica"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Will consumers prefer =
to pay higher flat rate charges for everything, or</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">prefer different pricing models when they access =
applications which</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">require dramatically =
different service levels to include the cost as</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">part of an application specific fee?</DIV> =
<DIV><SPAN class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: =
12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: =
0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: =
none; apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px =
Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; =
WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px =
Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; =
WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px =
Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; =
WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px =
Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; =
WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px =
Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; =
WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px =
Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; =
WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
apple-text-size-adjust: auto; orphans: 2; widows: 2"><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV> <DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></S=
PAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><BR> <DIV>Begin forwarded message:</DIV><BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><B>From: =
</B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3">Gordon Cook <<A =
href=3D"mailto:cook@cookreport.com">cook@cookreport.com</A>></FONT></DI=
V> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; =
COLOR: #000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><B>Date: =
</B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3">November 11, 2005 9:11:17 AM EST</FONT></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><B>To: =
</B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3">Owen DeLong <<A =
href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</A>></FONT></DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><B>Cc: =
</B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3"><A =
href=3D"mailto:nanog@merit.edu">nanog@merit.edu</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><B>Subject: =
</B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3"><B>Re: [Latest draft of Internet regulation =
bill]</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: =
0px"><BR></DIV><BR class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">Be careful Owen - i think you may be falling into a libertarian =
trap - worrisome because I respect highly things i have seen you write =
in past.</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Think about what you are saying: " Something =
to consider about this proposed "regulation"... It is =
actually</DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">in many ways proposed "deregulation"</DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">Yes it is indeed. <SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"></SPAN>It =
frees the duopoly to do whatever it wants.<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>And Whittacre has said what he =
wants and what he will do quite plainly -- has he not?<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>He will charge google and yahoo =
and skype for using his networks.</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: =
14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Here is how =
this legislation is being read in London at a public telco blog<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>recently launched by DRKW the =
large investment bank:</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><A =
href=3D"http://telcotech.drkw.com/blog/archives/2005/11/will_evil_preva.ht=
ml">http://telcotech.drkw.com/blog/archives/2005/11/will_evil_preva.html</=
A></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">"For all of our sakes lets hope that the telcos =
are not successful in their lobbying effort in the US. If they are =
successful, you can bet that your investment in the fixed telecoms =
utilities is safer but innovation on the internet is in jeopardy - =
which do you think creates more incremental future value in the world =
ultimately?"</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: =
0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Vint Cerf is on my economics =
of IP networks private mail list.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> =
</SPAN>The DRKW blog post partially cited above came in part from a =
public item comment of Vint's that i posted day before yesterday to my =
private list.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>It is =
fascinating that Sean Donelan whom I have known and respected since =
1991 dug that 1997 item quote from Vint from my archives.<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Donelan: "In 1997, Vint Cerf =
was advocating the necessity of usage based pricing when he was still =
with MCI.</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><A =
href=3D"http://www.cookreport.com/05.10.shtml">http://www.cookreport.com/0=
5.10.shtml</A></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: =
0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">COOK Report: Recall the =
date.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>This is PRE stupid =
network and again VINT is taking the pre-internet pre stupid network =
telco point of view. I'll post this to my list and see if Vint has =
anything that he wants to say about this 8 year old opinion.</DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Owen, do you want some legislation that gives the =
CEO of ATT/SBC the world largest dinosaur a blank check to do as he =
wishes with *HIS* network.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> =
</SPAN>This bills language is HIGHLY deceptive.<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I too despise government =
incompetence but giving Whittacre a blank check is IMHO much =
worse.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>But don't take my =
word for it - check out DRKW's analyst's opinion.<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Fred Goldstein also has a =
pretty good analysis. <SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"></SPAN>I =
probably will not further respond to this thread discussion.<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Please forgive me but I am =
swamped with many things that demand attention.</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, 431 Greenway Ave, Ewing, NJ =
08618 USA</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">609 882-2572 (PSTN) 415 =
651-4147 (Lingo) <A =
href=3D"mailto:cook@cookreport.com">cook@cookreport.com</A> =
Subscription</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">info: <A =
href=3D"http://cookreport.com/subscriptions.shtml">http://cookreport.com/s=
ubscriptions.shtml</A> IMS and<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> =
</SPAN>an Internet</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Economic<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>& Business Model<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>at: <A =
href=3D"http://cookreport.com/14.09.shtml">http://cookreport.com/14.09.sht=
ml</A></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: =
14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: =
0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">On Nov 11, 2005, at 1:38 AM, Owen DeLong =
wrote:</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: =
0px"><BR></DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">Something to consider about this proposed "regulation"... It is =
actually</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">in many ways proposed =
"deregulation".<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>This bill =
removes more authority</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">from the FCC =
and state and local governments than it grants.<SPAN =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>It provides</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">a very minimal framework of regulation, then, =
except for taxation and</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">a couple of =
other minor consumer protections, says "The government shall</DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">butt the hell out."</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">That's why I like it.</DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">But Owen - what if getting evil gov't out gives Whittacre a blank =
check?</DIV> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> =
<DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE =
type=3D"cite"> <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: =
0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Owen</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE> =
<DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><DIV =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV> <BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></=
HTML>=
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