[53491] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: PAIX
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jere Retzer)
Fri Nov 15 19:08:38 2002
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:01:44 -0800
From: "Jere Retzer" <retzerj@ohsu.edu>
To: <nanog@merit.edu>
Errors-To: owner-nanog-outgoing@merit.edu
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Some thoughts:
- Coast-to-coast "guaranteed latency" seems too low in most cases that =
I've seen. Not calling CEOs and marketers liars but the real world doesn't =
seem to do as well as the promises. As VOIP takes off "local" IP exchanges =
will continue/increase in importance because people won't tolerate high =
latency. What percentage of your phone calls are local?
- Yes, we do various kinds of video over Internet2. Guess what? Packet =
loss is very important. Fewer hops mean fewer lost packets. Local =
exchanges, if there were lots of them with lots of peering reduces the =
theoretical number of hops. Who will most of the videoconferences involve =
in the future =AF I think mostly people who see each other face-to-face =
periodically. Leading this are telework and telemed. Broadband is getting =
to the point that people will want to call up their doc/clinic rather than =
jump in the car just to be told to go home and go to bed, and get exposed =
to someone who has a contagious disease. Nursing homes, assisted living =
facilities, emergency rooms in mall towns should be key targets for this =
technology.
- While we're on the topic of local video, what happens when television =
migrates to IP networks? Seems like the "local" news should want to =
originate somewhere close. Most of our local TV and radio stations are =
part of chain today and their corporate headquarters have decided to host =
their web site at a central location without even worrying about Akamai or =
other local caching.
- Unfortunately, these applications do not work with today's local =
broadband networks =AF one reason being the lack of local interconnection. =
People have quit believing the Radio Shack ads. We have the technology to =
make these applications work if we'd stop arguing that no one wants to use =
them. Of course no one wants to use them =AF they know they won't work!
>>> David Diaz <techlist@smoton.net> 11/14/02 05:52PM >>>
Voice of reason...
The only possible reason I can think of is if these data networks=20
replace the present voice infrastructure. Think about it, if we=20
really all do replace our phones with some video screen like in the=20
movies, then yes, most of those calls stay local within the cities.=20
Mom calling son etc etc
So we can think of these "peering centers" as replacements for the=20
5-10 COs in most average cities.
Otherwise what apps require such dense peering.
At 14:44 -0800 11/14/02, Vadim Antonov wrote:
>On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, David Diaz wrote:
>
>> 2) There is a lack of a killer app requiring peering every 100 sq Km.
>
>Peering every 100 sq km is absolutely infeasible. Just think of the
>number of alternative paths routing algorithms wil lhave to consider.
>
>Anything like that would require serious redesign of Internet's routing
>architecture.
>
>--vadim
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<BODY style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 12pt Verdana; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px">
<DIV>Some thoughts:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Coast-to-coast "guaranteed latency" seems too low in most cases =
that I've=20
seen. Not calling CEOs and marketers liars but the real world doesn't seem =
to do=20
as well as the promises. As VOIP takes off "local" IP exchanges =
will=20
continue/increase in importance because people won't tolerate high=20
latency. What percentage of your phone calls are local?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Yes, we do various kinds of video over Internet2. Guess what? =
Packet loss=20
is very important. Fewer hops mean fewer lost packets. Local=20
exchanges, if there were lots of them with lots of peering reduces the=20
theoretical number of hops. Who will most of the videoconferences involve =
in the=20
future — I think mostly people who see each other face-to-face =
periodically.=20
Leading this are telework and telemed. Broadband is getting to the point =
that=20
people will want to call up their doc/clinic rather than jump in the car =
just to=20
be told to go home and go to bed, and get exposed to someone who has a=20
contagious disease. Nursing homes, assisted living facilities, emergency =
rooms=20
in mall towns should be key targets for this technology.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- While we're on the topic of local video, what happens when =
television=20
migrates to IP networks? Seems like the "local" news should =
want to=20
originate somewhere close. Most of our local TV and radio stations are =
part of=20
chain today and their corporate headquarters have decided to host their =
web site=20
at a central location without even worrying about Akamai or other local=20
caching.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Unfortunately, these applications do not work with today's local=20
broadband networks — one reason being the lack of local interconnecti=
on. People=20
have quit believing the Radio Shack ads. We have the technology to make =
these=20
applications work if we'd stop arguing that no one wants to use them. Of =
course=20
no one wants to use them — they know they won't work!<BR><BR>>>=
> David=20
Diaz <techlist@smoton.net> 11/14/02 05:52PM >>><BR><BR>Voice=
of=20
reason...<BR><BR>The only possible reason I can think of is if these =
data=20
networks <BR>replace the present voice infrastructure. Think about =
it, if=20
we <BR>really all do replace our phones with some video screen like in =
the=20
<BR>movies, then yes, most of those calls stay local within the cities. =
<BR>Mom=20
calling son etc etc<BR><BR>So we can think of these "peering centers" =
as=20
replacements for the <BR>5-10 COs in most average cities.<BR><BR>Otherwise =
what=20
apps require such dense peering.<BR><BR><BR>At 14:44 -0800 11/14/02, =
Vadim=20
Antonov wrote:<BR>>On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, David Diaz=20
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> 2) There is a lack of a killer app =
requiring=20
peering every 100 sq Km.<BR>><BR>>Peering every 100 sq km is =
absolutely=20
infeasible. Just think of the<BR>>number of alternative paths =
routing=20
algorithms wil lhave to consider.<BR>><BR>>Anything like that =
would=20
require serious redesign of Internet's=20
routing<BR>>architecture.<BR>><BR>>--vadim<BR><BR><BR></DIV></BODY=
></HTML>
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