[33227] in North American Network Operators' Group
RE: Dialup congestion and winter weather (fwd)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Roeland Meyer)
Thu Jan 4 13:48:49 2001
Message-ID: <9DC8BBAD4FF100408FC7D18D1F0922869BBF@condor.mhsc.com>
From: Roeland Meyer <rmeyer@mhsc.com>
To: 'Christopher Grupe' <cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com>,
Roeland Meyer <rmeyer@mhsc.com>, Roeland Meyer <rmeyer@mhsc.com>,
"'multics@ruserved.com'" <multics@ruserved.com>, nanog@merit.edu
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:44:27 -0800
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Yes, I was dialing into my own network.
No, I didn't make the connection to the weather.
Yes, it was LD from coast to coast, via AT&T calling card.
Yes, I did make the point that it was time-dependent. But, that could have
easily been a local-loop circuit dependency. Where, I got a circuit that
wasn't limited.
I am now back on the west coast and no longer in southern bell's region.
However, when I was there, I ran local loop tests that indicated that the
problem was on the near-end (NC). On the CA end, I consistantly get >33.6K
connections. I get similar results from CO, NV, WA, and OR metro areas
(>33.6K, consistently [I run both V.90 and 33.6K modem banks]). Only in
southern bell's regions does it drop to 14.4K (I was in Graham, NC).
Note: In the past 15 years, most (90%) of the bandwidth problems, using
modems, both customer and corporate, that I have had, were "last mile"
issues (IOW, local loop, usually at the end-node).
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Grupe [mailto:cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 9:27 AM
To: Roeland Meyer; Roeland Meyer; 'multics@ruserved.com'; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: RE: Dialup congestion and winter weather (fwd)
Maybe I misunderstood the statement you made... Let me paraphrase your
original statement...
During bad weather, at certain periods of time you experience:
consistent 14.4Kbps connections using AT&T (ISP? or Long distance?) Long
distance from Coast to Coast???
Are you just dialing into your network?
Christopher Grupe
Sr. Sales Engineer
Nortel Networks, Service Provider & Carrier
cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com
I speak for myself!
-----Original Message-----
From: Roeland Meyer [ mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com <mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com> ]
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 2:19 AM
To: Grupe, Christopher [DPARK:9234:EXCH]; Roeland Meyer;
'multics@ruserved.com'; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: RE: Dialup congestion and winter weather (fwd)
1) I'm my own ISP, dialing into my own modem banks. I am reasonably
confident that I know what my own systems are doing. They are not
interacting as you describe.
2) Local loop-back tests show that my servers see full bandwidth, on their
last mile. Similar testing on the NC "last mile" show the bandwidth
contraints. Since the bandwidth is constrained on the "last mile", the LD
trunk behavior is irrelevent. Although, that was a probability, until I did
the tests.
3) You really wouldn't believe the telco attachment equipment I carry in the
*other* half of my lap-top case. On the road, I can attach to the
tin-cans-n-string communications network, if I have to. Even if it does add
15 pounds to the carry weight<g>.
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Grupe [ mailto:cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com
<mailto:cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com> ]
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 7:56 AM
To: Roeland Meyer; 'multics@ruserved.com'; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: RE: Dialup congestion and winter weather (fwd)
He Sent,
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roeland Meyer [ mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com <mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com> ]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:53 AM
>To: 'multics@ruserved.com'; nanog@merit.edu
>Subject: RE: Dialup congestion and winter weather (fwd)
>
>
>
>That isn't the only issue. I've just found that Southern Bell does
bandwidth
>limiting on their residential customers. Most folks would never know the
>difference, but when v.90 modems start consistantly connecting at 14.4K, or
>less, then I know that the telco is only allowing 32K per voice channel
>(rather than the usual 64K). BTW, that was using AT&T universal LD from
>Graham, NC, to Livermore, CA. I only ever got full-speed late at night.
Come on,
The ISP is not going to write an init script for their modems to permanently
have them connect at 14.4. Telco's don't turn down the PCM rate on dial up's
to 32KBps either... Telco's (RBOC's) have a separate (unregulated) ISP,
which handles dial up traffic. The regulated side is the switched side
(voice switch).... One has nothing to do with the other (usually union
workers on the regulated side, and non-union on the unregulated side). So to
prove your point, the dial side (ISP non-union) would call the CO's and have
the Switchman changed the line card to an ADPCM (32Kbps) card at the switch,
and the ISP sets their modems to connect at 14.4Kbps. No way Jose!
Some CLEC's are running their line cards using ADPCM (32Kbps) and over an
ATM backbone. The RBOC's at this time are still using typical PCM (64Kbps)
per channel, for the line cards (unless using BRI).
The problem you may be experiencing is with the inter switched trunks, or
coming in a span that has timing slips, Errored Seconds, and severely
errored seconds, etc. Especially if you are going LD from NC to CA.
Christopher Grupe
Sr. Sales Engineer
Nortel Networks, Service Provider & Carrier
cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com
I speak for myself!
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<DIV><SPAN class=743263118-04012001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Yes,
I was dialing into my own network.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=743263118-04012001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>No, I
didn't make the connection to the weather.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=743263118-04012001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Yes,
it was LD from coast to coast, via AT&T calling card.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=743263118-04012001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Yes, I
did make the point that it was time-dependent. But, that could have easily been
a local-loop circuit dependency. Where, I got a circuit that wasn't
limited.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=743263118-04012001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=743263118-04012001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I am
now back on the west coast and no longer in southern bell's region. However,
when I was there, I ran local loop tests that indicated that the problem was on
the near-end (NC). On the CA end, I consistantly get >33.6K connections. I
get similar results from CO, NV, WA, and OR metro areas (>33.6K, consistently
[I run both V.90 and 33.6K modem banks]). Only in southern bell's regions does
it drop to 14.4K (I was in Graham, NC).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=743263118-04012001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=743263118-04012001><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Note:
In the past 15 years, most (90%) of the bandwidth problems, using modems, both
customer and corporate, that I have had, were "last mile" issues (IOW, local
loop, usually at the end-node).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Christopher Grupe
[mailto:cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04, 2001
9:27 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Roeland Meyer; Roeland Meyer; 'multics@ruserved.com';
nanog@merit.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Dialup congestion and winter weather
(fwd)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Maybe I misunderstood the statement you made... Let me
paraphrase your original statement...</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>During bad
weather, at certain periods of time you experience:</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>consistent 14.4Kbps connections using AT&T (ISP? or Long
distance?) Long distance from Coast to Coast??? </FONT><BR><FONT
size=2>Are you just dialing into your network?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Christopher Grupe</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Sr. Sales
Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Nortel Networks, Service Provider &
Carrier</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>I speak for myself!</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>From:
Roeland Meyer [<A
href="mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com">mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 2:19 AM</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>To:
Grupe, Christopher [DPARK:9234:EXCH]; Roeland Meyer;</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>'multics@ruserved.com'; nanog@merit.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Subject: RE: Dialup congestion and winter weather (fwd)</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>1) I'm my own ISP, dialing into my own modem banks. I am
reasonably</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>confident that I know what my own systems
are doing. They are not</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>interacting as you
describe.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>2) Local loop-back tests show that my servers see full
bandwidth, on their</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>last mile. Similar testing on the
NC "last mile" show the bandwidth</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>contraints.
Since the bandwidth is constrained on the "last mile", the LD</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>trunk behavior is irrelevent. Although, that was a probability, until I
did</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>the tests.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>3) You really wouldn't believe the telco attachment equipment
I carry in the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>*other* half of my lap-top case. On the
road, I can attach to the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>tin-cans-n-string
communications network, if I have to. Even if it does add</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>15 pounds to the carry weight<g>.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>From:
Christopher Grupe [<A
href="mailto:cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com">mailto:cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 7:56 AM</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>To: Roeland Meyer; 'multics@ruserved.com'; nanog@merit.edu</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>Subject: RE: Dialup congestion and winter weather
(fwd)</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>He Sent, </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>>-----Original
Message----- </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>>From: Roeland Meyer [<A
href="mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com">mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com</A>] </FONT><BR><FONT
size=2>>Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:53 AM </FONT><BR><FONT
size=2>>To: 'multics@ruserved.com'; nanog@merit.edu </FONT><BR><FONT
size=2>>Subject: RE: Dialup congestion and winter weather (fwd)
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>> </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>> </FONT><BR><FONT
size=2>> </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>>That isn't the only issue. I've just
found that Southern Bell does</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>bandwidth
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>>limiting on their residential customers. Most
folks would never know the </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>>difference, but when
v.90 modems start consistantly connecting at 14.4K, or</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>>less, then I know that the telco is only allowing 32K per
voice channel </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>>(rather than the usual 64K). BTW,
that was using AT&T universal LD from </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>>Graham,
NC, to Livermore, CA. I only ever got full-speed late at night.
</FONT></P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>Come on, </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>The ISP is not going to write
an init script for their modems to permanently</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>have
them connect at 14.4. Telco's don't turn down the PCM rate on dial up's</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>to 32KBps either... Telco's (RBOC's) have a separate
(unregulated) ISP,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>which handles dial up traffic. The
regulated side is the switched side</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>(voice switch)....
One has nothing to do with the other (usually union</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>workers on the regulated side, and non-union on the unregulated side).
So to</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>prove your point, the dial side (ISP non-union)
would call the CO's and have</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>the Switchman changed the
line card to an ADPCM (32Kbps) card at the switch,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>and
the ISP sets their modems to connect at 14.4Kbps. No way Jose!</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Some CLEC's are running their line cards using ADPCM (32Kbps)
and over an</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>ATM backbone. The RBOC's at this time are
still using typical PCM (64Kbps)</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>per channel, for the
line cards (unless using BRI).</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>The problem you may be
experiencing is with the inter switched trunks, or</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>coming in a span that has timing slips, Errored Seconds, and
severely</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>errored seconds, etc. Especially if you are
going LD from NC to CA.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Christopher Grupe
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>Sr. Sales Engineer </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>Nortel
Networks, Service Provider & Carrier </FONT><BR><FONT
size=2>cgrupe@nortelnetworks.com </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>I speak for myself!
</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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