[25924] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: ARIN whois
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Dean Anderson)
Tue Nov 23 18:10:20 1999
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991123160944.017556e8@odie.av8.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:10:31 -0500
To: Daniel Golding <dgolding@mindspring.net>
From: Dean Anderson <dean@av8.com>
Cc: nanog@merit.edu
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Errors-To: owner-nanog-outgoing@merit.edu
Its not there to scare them. It just notifies them what the fees and facts=
are. They can't argue they didn't know what the costs were. Nor can they=
argue the service was offered for free. Nor can they claim the fees are=
punitive or otherwise specific to their particular use. Anyone, regardless=
of race, creed, or commercial orientation who uses our services without=
authorization agrees to these fees. $90/hr is our regular rate for sysadmin=
work. We bill quite a bit each year at this rate. The $1 and $10 fees are=
quite reasonable in comparision to prices of making a stock trade off the=
street without signing up for some deep discount service. Making a stock=
trade and processing messages and bounces I think are very similar in=
computer resources. UCC2 makes agreements between electronic agents=
binding. And when the unauthorized relayers are tried criminally, they=
can't claim they didn't intend to commit a crime. Intent, I'm told, makes=
a big difference in how things get treated.
Well, they can try to claim it was free, and they didn't know what cost was,=
or that more than a certain amount was a crime, but their arguments are=
made weaker.
I didn't get the reference to guns. I must be tired... Do you mean that=
telling people the consequences of gun crimes is pointless? Whether it=
actually prevents the crime or not, at least in some cases intentionally=
disregarding the law is supposed to be punished more severely than merely=
breaking the law. So you should try to make sure if they do the crime,=
they get the most severe punishment. If they think twice, and don't do the=
crime, you won't ever know, will you?
--Dean
Around 03:18 PM 11/23/1999 -0500, rumor has it that Daniel Golding said:
>Dean,
>
>My apologies. Your scary message will surely stop spammers dead in their
>tracks. Please let me know if you intend to every own a gun store. I will
>have to make plans to leave the country...
>
>- Dan Golding
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Dean Anderson wrote:
>
>> No. I don't think it is ethically questionable. Each relay has started=
with NOQUEUE log entries. The relayer is telneting to port 25, and getting=
the following message:
>>=20
>> telnet odie 25
>> Trying 198.3.136.141...
>> Connected to odie.av8.com.
>> Escape character is '^]'.
>> 220-odie.av8.com ESMTP Sendmail; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:53:11 -0500 (EST)
>> 220-Authorized Users Only
>> 220-Notice: Unauthorized use billed at $1 per message, $10 per bounce,
>> 220-$90/hr for cleanup.
>> 220 Unauthorized use over $5000 defined as criminal by 18 USC 1030(6).
>>=20
>> Around 11:38 PM 11/22/1999 -0500, rumor has it that Daniel Golding said:
>> >
>> >Dean,
>> >
>> >Have you considered that, while your stand may be legally correct, it is
>> >ethically questionable? By leaving your relays open, you invite abuse=
and
>> >facilitate the theft of other networks' resources. I can not imagine=
what
>> >legitimate purpose you might have for such a practice. Perhaps the most
>> >disturbing aspect of this is your steady beat on the drum of law and
>> >order, combined with your strange zeal to block out IP addresses from a
>> >large block of law abiding folks.=20
>> >
>> >I can only wish you luck in your endevour to have Federal law=
enforcement
>> >officials deliver warrant on international spammers. Clearly, those=
folks
>> >don't have enough to do, and need the extra work.
>> >
>> >- Daniel Golding
>> >
>> >On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Dean Anderson wrote:
>> >
>> >>=20
>> >> These are coming from Mass, Cleveland, Ohio, and Virginia.=20
>> >>=20
>> >> We use our relays for legitimate business purposes. They are not=
"accidentally left open". We are not going to close them. We are going to=
pursue abusers civilly and criminally. The FBI assures me that it does not=
matter criminally that access comes from international sources.
>> >>=20
>> >> Much of the activity appears to be comming from alleged ANTI-SPAMMERs=
such as Chris Neill, and Alan Brown and Ron Guillemette who have been=
inciting attacks against us, posting to alt.2600 and advertising our=
service. Inciting criminal acts is a criminal act too, I'm pretty sure. We=
make sure to mention them prominently.
>> >>=20
>> >> --Dean
>> >>=20
>> >> Around 11:18 PM 11/21/1999 -0500, rumor has it that Kai Schlichting=
said:
>> >> >
>> >> >At 09:16 PM 11/21/99 -0500, Dean Anderson wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>Can someone send me a list of *all* AOL netblocks? ARIN's whois=
only gives back a handful.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I want to block _all_ AOL netblocks, but its tough to find out what=
they are.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Thanks to a few malicious, radical antispammers (Chris Neill, Alan=
Brown, etc) we are getting hit with a large number of criminal mail relays.=
Mostly coming from AOL addresses. We have about a half dozen individual=
criminal complaints underway.
>> >> >
>> >> >Don't kid us, Dan. Close your fucking relays (not that any of them=
talk to
>> >> >my hosts anyhow). If this has to be drummed into your bonehead again:=
THEY
>> >> >WILL FIND YOUR RELAYS ON THEIR OWN, AND THEY WILL ABUSE THEM, NO=
MATTER
>> >> >HOW LOUD YOU SCREAM. THEY SIT IN CHINA, PAKISTAN AND KOREA, AND THERE=
IS
>> >> >NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT THEM SHORT OF CALLING THE WHITEHOUSE AND=
GETTING
>> >> >THESE PLACES INVADED. Alternatively, you could come to your senses=
and
>> >> >shut the literal front door of your house now that you've finally=
noticed
>> >> >the first unsavory characters passing by. A couple years after the=
rest
>> >> >of us, no doubt.
>> >> >
>> >> >And they won't need ORBS or any other service to locate you, either.
>> >> >Stop complaining. No more secrets (now that's from Scott Yelich's=
tagline).
>> >> >
>> >> >bye,Kai
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >kai@conti.nu "Just say No" to Spam Kai=
Schlichting
>> >> >Palo Alto, New York, You name it Sophisticated Technical=
Peon
>> >> >Kai's SpamShield <tm> is FREE! =
http://SpamShield.Conti.nu
>> >> >| =
|
>> >>=
>LeasedLines-FrameRelay-IPLs-ISDN-PPP-Cisco-Consulting-VoiceFax-Data-Muxes
>> >>=
>WorldWideWebAnything-Intranets-NetAdmin-UnixAdmin-Security-ReallyHardMath
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >> Plain Aviation, Inc dean@av8.com
>> >> LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com
>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> >>=20
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Plain Aviation, Inc dean@av8.com
>> LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>=20
>
>
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Plain Aviation, Inc dean@av8.com
LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
