[190175] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: NANOG67 - Tipping point of community and sponsor bashing?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Mike Hammett)
Fri Jun 17 07:52:19 2016
X-Original-To: nanog@nanog.org
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:50:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net>
Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
In-Reply-To: <57633A12.60806@foobar.org>
Errors-To: nanog-bounces@nanog.org
I think the popularity of the donation-based IX largely a violent reaction =
to the over-priced major IX operators in the US. People didn't like what wa=
s happening, so went to the polar opposite.=20
-----=20
Mike Hammett=20
Intelligent Computing Solutions=20
http://www.ics-il.com=20
Midwest Internet Exchange=20
http://www.midwest-ix.com=20
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Hilliard" <nick@foobar.org>=20
To: "Dave Temkin" <dave@temk.in>=20
Cc: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org>=20
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 6:45:22 PM=20
Subject: Re: NANOG67 - Tipping point of community and sponsor bashing?=20
Dave Temkin wrote:=20
> They are representative of the most important IXPs to deliver traffic=20
> from in Western Europe.=20
I don't doubt that they are important IXPs for delivering traffic.=20
However, no other IXP in europe (both eastern and western) is doing=20
expansion outside the countries that they operate in, other than three=20
out of the four that you mentioned; none of the member-owned=20
organisations in the region are making large profits or in most cases=20
anything more than marginal profits, and all of them have lower port=20
costs. Also, none of their activities suggest that their marketing=20
budgets are large. These, I think, were the main points of contention=20
you were concerned about.=20
> I would posit that what defines important to me may not be what defines=
=20
> important to you and the same can be said when you look at how various=20
> "internet" companies look at what's important in their vertical.=20
We're not talking about relative importance; we're talking about whether=20
the problems you identified with the four IXPs named in your talk are=20
representative of problems with the larger IXP community. I cannot find=20
evidence that they are, at least not in the areas that you identified as=20
problems.=20
> Netnod runs a dns root server=20
> system (i.root-servers.net <http://i.root-servers.net>) as well as a=20
> heavy duty time service.=20
>=20
> There are others who do this for no cost and some who do it for=20
> government money. Whether or not my port fees should subsidize this is a=
=20
> valid question, and was brought up in the Q&A afterwards.=20
All root operators do this for no charge, but at substantial cost.=20
Running a root dns server system is one of the things what Netnod does=20
because that's one of the things that the organisation is chartered to do.=
=20
> Regarding the pricing reduction on page 16 of your preso, the US$ and=20
> UK=C2=A3 are not much different than what they were 5 years ago, but the =
=E2=82=AC=20
> has dropped by 30% against the US$.=20
>=20
> You speak to this below, however if my business is primarily run in USD=
=20
> (which was the relevant use case presented: I'm a US company deciding if=
=20
> I should peer in Europe or buy transit) then those currency fluctuations=
=20
> have a very different impact than if I'm a European company functioning=
=20
> primarily in local currency.=20
Oh sure, but this is a matter that you need to take up with your=20
financial people. I have no doubt that Netflix employs smart financial=20
people, and that their decisions are the right thing for Netflix.=20
IXPs are going to operate in their local currency and they cannot be=20
held responsible for international currency fluctuations. From this=20
respect, I don't think it's useful to bring this up in a critical=20
context because it's not something that they can influence in any way=20
whatever.=20
> I did purposefully mention SIX as a polar opposite example - there is=20
> definitely a happy medium to be found.=20
This edges into one of the things that is crucial to this discussion,=20
and it was unfortunate that it wasn't explored more. The crux is that=20
there is a substantial cultural difference between how US people view=20
IXPs and how european people view IXPs.=20
As far as I can tell there are, for the most part, two types of IXPs in=20
the US: commercial and co-operative. How they differ from european IXPs=20
is that the commercials are almost all run by the data centres and are=20
tied to those data centres. Most if not all of the co-operative IXPs=20
are to some degree or other financed by donations or sponsorship and the=20
donation types are: cash, equipment and manpower.=20
In europe, there are three types of IXP: commercial, member based and=20
non-member, non-profit. Many of the commercial IXPs are not owned by=20
the data centres (e.g. NL-IX, ECIX, etc). The member-owned IXPs are=20
answerable fully to their membership (e.g. LINX, INEX), and the=20
non-member, non-profit IXPs (Netnod, VIX, etc) provide a service to the=20
community as they see fit, but are not required to answer to the=20
organisations who use them for peering services, even if they are likely=20
to listen to what those organisations say.=20
Crucially, almost all of the european non-profit IXPs are 100%=20
self-funded without donations, sponsorship or subsidisation of manpower.=20
They have offices, admin people, support staff and everything else that=20
a normal business has. IXP staff are paid market rates because if you=20
don't do this, they walk.=20
They do this because this having a dependable income source ensures long=20
term stability and their members / customers / peering participants need=20
to know that the organisation that supports their business is built on a=20
sound structural foundation. This matters to them and they are prepared=20
to pay for it.=20
The flip side of it is that European non-profit IXPs are, by design,=20
more expensive than US non-profit IXPs and there are almost no free /=20
zero-recurrent-cost IXPs in the region.=20
So I would question comparing a european IXP with e.g. SIX or=20
CommunityIX and would suggest that this is a case of apples and bananas.=20
Both are yummy, but whether you prefer one or another is a matter of taste.=
=20
How IXPs spend revenue is a different matter. You're right to bring=20
this topic up because scrutiny is what keeps things honest.=20
Nick=20
