[182120] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: Dual stack IPv6 for IPv4 depletion
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Matthew Kaufman)
Fri Jul 10 13:01:15 2015
X-Original-To: nanog@nanog.org
In-Reply-To: <54BB131F-1B64-41A9-B300-F464838EA710@delong.com>
From: Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 10:01:11 -0700
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org>
Errors-To: nanog-bounces@nanog.org
> On Jul 10, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 03:57 , Matthew Kaufman <matthew@matthew.at> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 11:53 PM, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On Thu, 09 Jul 2015 23:33:25 -0700, Matthew Kaufman said:
>>>=20
>>>> One of the hopeful outcomes of IPv6 adoption was that an ISP could get
>>>> enough to last "forever" in a single transaction. But "forever" isn't
>>>> very long at one /48 (or more) per customer.
>>>=20
>>> How long does it take to blow through a /20 at /48 a customer?
>>=20
>> A while. But the more likely case is that the guy before you asked for an=
d got a /32, because that's the minimum (and already two steps up the fee sc=
ale, I might add)
>>=20
>> You want ISPs to start with /20s? I'll support that over on PPML if you p=
ropose it. But I'll also ask for /20 to have a fee category of "small".
>>=20
>> Matthew Kaufman
>>=20
>> (Sent from my iPhone)
>=20
> According to https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html
>=20
> ISP / ALLOCATIONS INITIAL REGISTRATION OR ANNUAL FEES
> Service Category Initial Registration or Annual Fee
> (US Dollars) IPv4 Block Size IPv6 Block Size
> XX-Small $500 /22 or smaller /40 or smaller
> X-Small $1,000 Larger than /22, up to and including /20 Lar=
ger than /40, up to and including /36
> Small $2,000 Larger than /20, up to and including /18 Larger than=
/36, up to and including /32
> Medium $4,000 Larger than /18, up to and including /16 Lar=
ger than /32, up to and including /28
> Large $8,000 Larger than /16, up to and including /14 Larger than=
/28, up to and including /24
> X-Large $16,000 Larger than /14, up to and including /12=
Larger than /24, up to and including /20
> XX-Large $32,000 Larger than /12 Larger than /20
>=20
>=20
> If your IPv4 ISP fits in a /22 or smaller, you can hand out /48s from a /3=
2 for a very long time.
> (maximum 1024 customer end-sites with no addresses reserved for you=
r own infrastructure, /32 =3D 65535 customer
> end sites after reserving a /48 for your infrastructure)
> If your IPv4 ISP fits in a /20 or smaller, you can hand out /48s from a /3=
2 for a pretty long time.
> (maximum 4096 customer end-sites with no addresses reserved for you=
r own infrastructure, /32 =3D 65535 customer
> end sites after reserving a /48 for your infrastructure)
> If your IPv4 ISP fits in a /18 or smaller, you can hand out /48s from a /3=
2 for quite a while.
> (maximum 16,384 customer end-sites with no addresses reserved for y=
our own infrastructure, /32 =3D 65535 customer
> end sites after reserving a /48 for your infrastructure).
>=20
> At IPv6 /18 or smaller, you=E2=80=99re in the same fee category as an IPv6=
/32.
>=20
> As you go up, the situation only gets better=E2=80=A6
>=20
> If your ISP uses an IPv4 /16, then you have a maximum of 65,536 customers w=
ith no allowance for infrastructure.
> For free, you can get an IPv6 /28. This allows you 16,777,215 /48 end site=
s with a /48 reserved for your infrastructure.
>=20
> If your ISP uses an IPv4 /14, then you have a maximum of 262,144 customers=
with no allowance for infrastructure.
> For free, you can get an IPv6 /24 to support up to 268,435,455 /48 end sit=
es after reserving a /48 for infrastructure.
>=20
> Sure, Matthew is going to point out that my maximum IPv4 customer numbers a=
ssume you aren=E2=80=99t doing CGN. That=E2=80=99s true.
> Let=E2=80=99s assume you get a ratio of 64 customers per address using CGN=
(the real numbers are more like 8-16 customers
> per address before stuff starts to degrade badly).
>=20
> 64 * 1024 =3D 65536 subscribers on a /22, assuming you have no infrastruct=
ure, no servers, and no customers that
> refuse to accept densely packed CGN. At this point, you can still h=
and out a /48 to every customer for all
> practical purposes if you have a /32 of IPv6.
>=20
> Yes, the ultra-tiniest of ISPs will have to pay an extra $1,500 per year f=
or their address space. Everybody else will
> actually probably be able to pay less per year for address space once they=
can abandon IPv4, even if they give a /48
> to every single end-site.
>=20
> Owen
>=20
I use legacy IPv4 space and pay nothing. So IPv6 would be a big jump. Didn't=
even need to invoke NAT for my argument.
But I'll repeat what I said before - want ISPs handing out lots of space? Ma=
ke the minimum /20 or /24 instead of /32. I'll support that over on the othe=
r list if someone proposes it.
Matthew Kaufman
(Sent from my iPhone)=
