[169956] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: competition (was: Level 3 blames Internet slowdowns on Technica)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Keegan Holley)
Fri Mar 21 15:21:13 2014
From: Keegan Holley <no.spam@comcast.net>
In-Reply-To: <211073AE-9395-4025-9423-A78DA762CD39@puck.nether.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 15:21:17 -0400
To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Errors-To: nanog-bounces+nanog.discuss=bloom-picayune.mit.edu@nanog.org
On Mar 21, 2014, at 2:21 PM, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:
>=20
> On Mar 21, 2014, at 2:08 PM, Keegan Holley <no.spam@comcast.net> =
wrote:
>=20
>> How come no one ever asks if competition is required?
>=20
> I think the issue here is there is competition, but those you are seen =
as competing with are in a different strata providing the same service.
My question is competition and the market the goal at all?
>=20
> eg: Cellular data competes with DSL/DOCSIS/FTT*
>=20
> Now, due to speed, caps, etc.. it may not be a "fair" comparison, but =
this isn't about fair, it's about "is there competition in the market". =
I know many folks that live outside the wired high-speed boundaries and =
things are not getting any better there. Most use some hotspot or =
similar for their home connectivity.
>=20
> Is there a market for high speed there? certainly, but it's being =
filled by other technology. =20
Again why is the market so important? The inhabitants of this list =
operate (some help develop) the most complex system created by our =
species to date. It is one of the few truly global systems and brought =
with it a new era in human development. We now have more information at =
our fingertips than at any point in history. What do we argue about? =
How to profit from it? I=92m not saying that profit is bad. I=92m =
arrogant but not arrogant enough to think I can answer such a question. =
It just fascinates me that no one questions it.
If an area isn=92t considered not to be profitable it=92s just fine that =
the internet doesn=92t stretch there. We don=92t even have a definition =
of what profitable means. It=92s completely up to the ISP=92s. Still, =
businesses in that area are limited, children don=92t do as well in =
school and in turn don=92t have as much opportunity. All of this =
happens, unquestioned in the name of profits.
>=20
> There are many folks that work around these issues with other =
solutions, including satellite, fixed wireless and/or microwave or even =
localized fiber build-outs. Look at the RUS/NTIA/BTOP focus, it was on =
getting the anchor institutions well connected to provide a sense of =
community. The challenge is not everyone is equally equipped. Merit =
(in my area) has fiber close to me, but they don't offer services to =
anyone but existing members and have no consumer offerings.
>=20
> Market segmentation happens for a variety of reasons, sometimes =
economic, sometimes complete differences in ROI models.
Market segmentation doesn=92t happen as much as market consolidation. =
There are now three (with a 4th that is close) major carriers in the US =
with enough market share to compete with each other. There isn=92t much =
segmentation because segmentation isn=92t as profitable.
>=20
> Nobody can afford to run universal fiber everywhere as a greenfield =
build, but there are localized markets where it can make sense. =20
That=92s totally untrue. What is affordable to a multi-billion dollar =
ISP anyway? Are you saying they=92d go bankrupt if they ran fiber =
everywhere? No, it=92s just that the infrastructure isn=92t profitable =
in the short term. There=92s a reason why energy companies can=92t make =
the same decision.
> Certainly it can make sense to connect some islands to each other via =
some other technology. Taking list prices from providers webpages, what =
cogent used to list $4/meg, so that means (assuming everything is =
perfect) offering 10Mb/s service at a home could possibly cost $40/mo =
for a provider, not counting capital costs and other elements (support, =
customer acquisition costs, bad debt, etc).
>=20
> I'm sure folks can build networks for low cost, you can get a 1G =
active-ethernet NID for sub-$150 with optics, but you still need to =
aggregate and account for it somewhere.
Again why does everything have to move at the speed of profit? At least =
here in the US anything that could remotely benefit society is always =
first shot through the prism of profit and the so-called free market. =
Is a market with three major players and a 9-figure entry cost really =
free though?
>=20
> - Jared
