[165589] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: Internet Surveillance and Boomerang Routing: A Call for Canadian
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bill Woodcock)
Tue Sep 10 13:27:35 2013
From: Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net>
In-Reply-To: <522F48E1.1020203@vaxination.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 10:27:15 -0700
To: Jean-Francois Mezei <jfmezei_nanog@vaxination.ca>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Errors-To: nanog-bounces+nanog.discuss=bloom-picayune.mit.edu@nanog.org
--Apple-Mail=_6AF55742-BB32-47CA-A65B-72D41F090A7E
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1252
On Sep 10, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Jean-Francois Mezei =
<jfmezei_nanog@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Will the market start to demand routes that avoid the USA if the =
destination is not the USA ?
Unlikely, all else being equal. The market demands the least expensive =
routes. Which is why we push for new IXPs on the Canadian side of the =
border, so that the _cheapest_ route will also be the _shortest_ route, =
and will remain within Canadian jurisdiction and the purview of Canadian =
personal privacy law, for instance.
> It is about sovereignty and the ability of one nation to decide for =
itself.
> Could the government set policies that end up making within-canada
> transit and peering more competitive than buying transit through the =
USA ?
Note that this is an entirely different question, orthogonal to markets =
and economics. It is within the power of the Canadian sovereign =
government to do whatever wiretaps it likes within Canada, and share =
that information with other governments, for instance, and neither =
shortest paths nor least expensive paths will have any effect on that. =20=
That said, regulatory best-practice is generally held to be to either =
keep hands off the Internet entirely, or to make an ISP class license =
requirement that every service provider network deliver traffic that has =
source and destination addresses within a region, without passing the =
traffic across the border of the region. That's a technology-neutral =
way of saying that if you have a customer in a region, and someone else =
has a customer in the same region, you and they had better figure out a =
way of delivering that traffic through peering or local transit.
> Lets reverse the situation for half a second. Say most traffic from =
USA
> to USA were to pass through Canada and Canada had the ability to spy =
on
> all USA traffic, including emails between congressman and their =
mistresses.
> Do you think the USA would let another nation spy on its traffic for
> half a second ?
Happens all the time. China Telecom has routers within the U.S. =
borders, and offers domestic routes across the U.S. Stands to reason =
that France Telecom, Deutsche Telekom, et cetera, would be doing the =
same thing for their respective sovereigns. All of this is just routine =
power-struggle, it's not an all-or-nothing thing, and absolutes are of =
little value in the discussion.
> How can Bombardier compete against Boeing when the NSA captures
> Bombardier's emails etc and could potentially hand them over to =
Boeing?
The theory was that, paraphrasing _Brazil_, "this is the Department of =
Records, not the Department of Information Retrieval." Theoretically, =
the countries that collected and shared information did so for the =
benefit of the sovereign, not the benefit of the people or the benefit =
of capital, and did not share what they collected with the private =
sector. That has, however, been abused before:
=
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/00/02/09/1845227/france-sues-us-and-uk-over-=
echelon
Also of note:
=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada=96France_relations#Saint_Pierre_and_Mi=
quelon_boundary_dispute
So, not meaning to be a downer here, just pointing out that we should =
all be doing what we can, and not wasting too much energy on shocked =
outrage at the misbehavior of others. =20
-Bill
--Apple-Mail=_6AF55742-BB32-47CA-A65B-72D41F090A7E
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename=signature.asc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
name=signature.asc
Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org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=jzyY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--Apple-Mail=_6AF55742-BB32-47CA-A65B-72D41F090A7E--
