[102507] in North American Network Operators' Group
RE: IPV4 as a Commodity for Profit
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (John Lee)
Mon Feb 18 13:02:44 2008
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:48:32 -0600
From: "John Lee" <John@internetassociatesllc.com>
To: "Rod Beck" <Rod.Beck@hiberniaatlantic.com>,
"Raymond Macharia" <raymond@accesskenya.com>,
"NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org>
Errors-To: owner-nanog@merit.edu
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Thanks Rod,
=20
The traders at Enron are/where PhDs with MBAs from Wharton, Harvard and =
Oxford, UK so well educated and smart was not the point of the comment. =
ARIN (and other RIRs) and the rules of use of IP address were =
specifically setup to allow global communications around the world with =
a large number of entities on an equal basis. IPv4 would be a fixed size =
pool of a commodity and from my training at Enron in trading (they were =
the largest in the world by number and volume of trades) it only works =
under several rules. You have a group of suppliers and consumers, you =
have a measurable commodity and a standard way of measuring it, you have =
a standard set of commodities, you can assign a value to the commodity =
etc.
=20
If I grow corn or drill for "Texas Light Crude" there standards in place =
so that if you drill in the Middle east, China or Russia you produce the =
same "Texas Light Crude" to trade.
=20
Trading of IP address does violate ARIN rules as ARIN has explained to =
me since to "Trade" something is to have title or ownership of that item =
and that ownership belongs to the cognizant RIR not to a company or =
person.
=20
Regards
=20
John
=20
PS: The RIRs are community driven and so if the community wants to =
become a market place, they can petition ARIN have a vote and change if =
the majority of the community wants to.
=20
=20
________________________________
From: Rod Beck [mailto:Rod.Beck@hiberniaatlantic.com]
Sent: Mon 2/18/2008 12:05 PM
To: John Lee; Raymond Macharia; NANOG list
Subject: RE: IPV4 as a Commodity for Profit
Hi John,
I think that comment is way out of line. In fact, I met at LINX one of =
authors of a trading proposal. They are smart, well educated =
individuals.
Markets have proven to be excellent mechanisms for allocating resources =
fairness is a distinct issue) and might be the medication required given =
the apparent hoarding of IP addresses.
Nor is the trading of IP addresses inconsistent with ARIN ownership.
Regards, =20
Roderick S. Beck
Director of European Sales
Hibernia Atlantic
1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris
http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com <http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com/>=20
Wireless: 1-212-444-8829.
Landline: 33-1-4346-3209.
French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97.
AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth
rod.beck@hiberniaatlantic.com
rodbeck@erols.com
``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' =
Albert Einstein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-nanog@merit.edu on behalf of John Lee
Sent: Mon 2/18/2008 4:45 PM
To: Raymond Macharia; NANOG list
Subject: RE: IPV4 as a Commodity for Profit
Distribution:
This "idea" comes from clueless individuals who want to know "who owns =
the Internet"? When I worked at Enron Broadband Services "the crooked =
E", management wanted to buy PSInet so that "we" could developed a =
trading desk for IP address blocks.
We informed management that neither EBS or PSInet owned their IP =
addresses but rented them from ARIN. And when the organization indicates =
that IP addresses are no longer needed, they can be returned to ARIN or =
ARIN can come and get them from the organization per ARIN AUP and other =
policies that users signed when making a request to ARIN. (Review a =
court case several years ago, about a company going into bankruptcy, I =
believe, claiming that "their" IP addresses were part of the assets of =
the company...)
Now for those who could not follow the last paragraph, the analogy is =
when you were young and renting your apartment or house and you wanted =
to make money selling one of the rooms of your rented apartment or =
house.
So anyone with spare /16 or larger send the blocks back to ARIN so they =
can be good stewards of the diminishing resource.
John (ISDN) Lee
I Still Don't kNow
It Suites Dennis's Needs
________________________________
From: owner-nanog@merit.edu on behalf of Raymond Macharia
Sent: Mon 2/18/2008 8:39 AM
To: 'NANOG list'
Subject: IPV4 as a Commodity for Profit
Hello
the article here
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/021308-ipv6-delay.html is an
interesting read given the current state of IPv4 depletion/IPv6 =
conversion
operational climate.
As it is indicated, it's a proposal and there are considerations as to
whether it makes things better or worse.
Regards
Raymond Macharia
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<HTML dir=3Dltr><HEAD><TITLE>RE: IPV4 as a Commodity for Profit</TITLE>=0A=
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dunicode">=0A=
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<BODY>=0A=
<DIV id=3DidOWAReplyText59311 dir=3Dltr>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks =
Rod,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The traders at Enron =
are/where PhDs with MBAs from Wharton, Harvard and Oxford, UK so =
well educated and smart was not the point of the comment. ARIN (and =
other RIRs) and the rules of use of IP address were specifically =
setup to allow global communications around the world with a large =
number of entities on an equal basis. IPv4 would be =
a fixed size pool of a commodity and from my training at =
Enron in trading (they were the largest in the world by number and =
volume of trades) it only works under several rules. You have a group of =
suppliers and consumers, you have a measurable commodity and a standard =
way of measuring it, you have a standard set of commodities, you can =
assign a value to the commodity etc.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If I grow corn or drill for =
"Texas Light Crude" there standards in place so that if you drill in the =
Middle east, China or Russia you produce the same "Texas Light Crude" to =
trade.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Trading of IP address does =
violate ARIN rules as ARIN has explained to me since to "Trade" =
something is to have title or ownership of that item and that ownership =
belongs to the cognizant RIR not to a company or person.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PS: The RIRs are community =
driven and so if the community wants to become a market place, they can =
petition ARIN have a vote and change if the majority of the community =
wants to.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><BR>=0A=
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>=0A=
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Rod Beck =
[mailto:Rod.Beck@hiberniaatlantic.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Mon 2/18/2008 =
12:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B> John Lee; Raymond Macharia; NANOG =
list<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: IPV4 as a Commodity for =
Profit<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>=0A=
<DIV>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2>Hi John,<BR><BR>I think that comment is way out of =
line. In fact, I met at LINX one of authors of a trading proposal. They =
are smart, well educated individuals.<BR><BR>Markets have proven to be =
excellent mechanisms for allocating resources fairness is a distinct =
issue) and might be the medication required given the apparent hoarding =
of IP addresses.<BR><BR>Nor is the trading of IP addresses inconsistent =
with ARIN ownership.<BR><BR>Regards, <BR><BR>Roderick S. =
Beck<BR>Director of European Sales<BR>Hibernia Atlantic<BR>1, Passage du =
Chantier, 75012 Paris<BR><A =
href=3D"http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com/">http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com=
</A><BR>Wireless: 1-212-444-8829.<BR>Landline: 33-1-4346-3209.<BR>French =
Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97.<BR>AOL Messenger: =
GlobalBandwidth<BR>rod.beck@hiberniaatlantic.com<BR>rodbeck@erols.com<BR>=
``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' =
Albert Einstein.<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =
owner-nanog@merit.edu on behalf of John Lee<BR>Sent: Mon 2/18/2008 4:45 =
PM<BR>To: Raymond Macharia; NANOG list<BR>Subject: RE: IPV4 as a =
Commodity for Profit<BR><BR>Distribution:<BR><BR>This "idea" comes from =
clueless individuals who want to know "who owns the Internet"? When I =
worked at Enron Broadband Services "the crooked E", management wanted to =
buy PSInet so that "we" could developed a trading desk for IP address =
blocks.<BR><BR>We informed management that neither EBS or PSInet owned =
their IP addresses but rented them from ARIN. And when the organization =
indicates that IP addresses are no longer needed, they can be returned =
to ARIN or ARIN can come and get them from the organization per ARIN AUP =
and other policies that users signed when making a request to ARIN. =
(Review a court case several years ago, about a company going into =
bankruptcy, I believe, claiming that "their" IP addresses were part of =
the assets of the company...)<BR><BR>Now for those who could not follow =
the last paragraph, the analogy is when you were young and renting your =
apartment or house and you wanted to make money selling one of the rooms =
of your rented apartment or house.<BR><BR>So anyone with spare /16 or =
larger send the blocks back to ARIN so they can be good stewards of the =
diminishing resource.<BR><BR>John (ISDN) Lee<BR>I Still Don't kNow<BR>It =
Suites Dennis's =
Needs<BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>From: =
owner-nanog@merit.edu on behalf of Raymond Macharia<BR>Sent: Mon =
2/18/2008 8:39 AM<BR>To: 'NANOG list'<BR>Subject: IPV4 as a Commodity =
for Profit<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Hello<BR>the article here<BR><A =
href=3D"http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/021308-ipv6-delay.html">htt=
p://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/021308-ipv6-delay.html</A> is =
an<BR>interesting read given the current state of IPv4 depletion/IPv6 =
conversion<BR>operational climate.<BR>As it is indicated, it's a =
proposal and there are considerations as to<BR>whether it makes things =
better or worse.<BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Raymond =
Macharia<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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