[99916] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon Word of the Day: He'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Chelsea Knauf)
Thu Dec 4 12:52:56 2014
In-Reply-To: <ED67C9C0-7970-472D-B8BF-1018B9901368@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 11:52:35 -0600
From: Chelsea Knauf <chelsea.knauf@gmail.com>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I appreciate it! Thanks for taking the time to explain.
On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:30 AM, <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, then. I will go into grammatical detail, agreeing that for being ne=
w
> with the language, you got a lot of it right.
>
> Let=E2=80=99s go word by word, and not take this so much as a critique as=
it is an
> opportunity for education. With the first word, the education simply has =
to
> do with what the rest of us have settled on for conventions of punctuatio=
n.
> You have:
>
> =E2=80=98roS=E2=80=99
>
> The problem is that an apostrophe, in the Romanized Klingon alphabet used
> in The Klingon Dictionary, is not punctuation. It=E2=80=99s an actual let=
ter of the
> alphabet; a consonant, like a =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=9D or a =E2=80=9Cp=E2=80=
=9D. It=E2=80=99s the sound you make in the
> middle of the =E2=80=9Coops=E2=80=9D word =E2=80=9Cuh-oh=E2=80=9D (or rat=
her the way you stop making sound
> in the middle of the word =E2=80=9Cuh-oh=E2=80=9D). It=E2=80=99s the phon=
etic equivalent of that
> hyphen in uh-oh. The main difference is that in Klingon, you don=E2=80=99=
t just use
> it to separate one syllable from another. You can begin or end a syllable
> with this =E2=80=9Csound=E2=80=9D.
>
> So, you can=E2=80=99t use it for quotations. Here on the list, we=E2=80=
=99ve informally
> come to agree that you use << and >> as quotation marks in Klingon text.
> So, simply correcting this one reasonable error, we=E2=80=99d have:
>
> {<<roS>> wIpong, =E2=80=98ej pong pIm wIpongchugh, pIw =E2=80=98ey He=E2=
=80=99=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 taH}.
>
> As you have already picked up, we use curly braces {} to surround Klingon
> text, but usually, we do that when the Klingon text is streamed amid
> English text, as I would do if I wanted to mention the Klingon word {roS}=
.
> If we write Klingon on a separate line from any English text, we don=E2=
=80=99t
> usually bother with the braces.
>
> Meanwhile, you don=E2=80=99t really want the Klingon word {roS}. You want=
a
> transliteration of the word =E2=80=9Crose=E2=80=9D, which pronounces the =
=E2=80=9Cs=E2=80=9D with a =E2=80=9Cz=E2=80=9D
> sound that is alien to Klingon. It=E2=80=99s a sound that isn=E2=80=99t p=
art of the
> language, the way that the French =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D and the German =E2=
=80=9Cch" are not a part of
> the English language.
>
> Until you have more experience with transliteration, you probably want to
> just keep English names English. Since we know that a lowercase =E2=80=9C=
s=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t
> exist in Klingon, it=E2=80=99s not confusing if we say:
>
> <<rose>> wIpong =E2=80=98ej pong pIm wIpongchugh, =E2=80=A6
>
> This is fine as is. It might be nice to expand on the beginning a little,
> just to be clearer:
>
> tIvamvaD <<rose>> wIpong =E2=80=98ach pong pIm wIpongchugh, =E2=80=A6
>
> This is totally optional. If context is enough that we all know what you
> are talking about when you say =E2=80=9Crose=E2=80=9D, that might work. I=
just added a
> reference to what we are calling a rose. It=E2=80=99s not easy to do in K=
lingon
> because we don=E2=80=99t have a lot of botany words. English dictionaries=
are FULL
> of them. Try playing Quiddler or Scrabble without resorting to names of
> plants or animals and see how far you get.
>
> I also replaced {=E2=80=98ej} with {=E2=80=98ach} because logically =E2=
=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=9D mean
> exactly the same thing, though =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=9D carries the addition=
al subjective
> sense of =E2=80=9Cunlike what you might expect=E2=80=9D. In either case, =
you are using a
> conjunction that describes a context with two true statements, but if you
> use =E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D, one usually expects both to be true, and if yo=
u use =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=9D, then
> you might otherwise, having heard the first fact, expect the second fact =
to
> be false. I like you, but I don=E2=80=99t LIKE like you.
>
> tIvamvaD <<rose>> wIpong =E2=80=98ach pong pIm wIpongchugh, pIw =E2=80=98=
ey He=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e' taH.
>
> Okay, we have a couple of problems here. You are best served to omit the
> {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} and use the verb suffix {taH} instead of the separa=
te verb {taH}.
> {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} as a suffix does not belong on a verb, and if you m=
eant to use the
> pronoun {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} as a way of meaning =E2=80=9CIt continues t=
hat it emits a pleasurable
> odor,=E2=80=9D the problem is that {taH} as a verb probably does not take=
a direct
> object. The definition =E2=80=9Ccontinue, go on, endure, survive=E2=80=9D=
does not really
> suggest a direct object, and without that, {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} has no g=
rammatical
> function here. The =E2=80=9Csentence as object=E2=80=9D grammatical const=
ruction is very
> useful, but those new with the language tend to fall to it a bit
> prematurely to carry a very wide range of thought, much of which is bette=
r
> served with other constructions.
>
> tIvamvaD <<rose>> wIpong =E2=80=98ach pong pIm wIpongchugh, pIw =E2=80=98=
ey He=E2=80=99taH.
>
> This is perfectly serviceable as a translation, though it makes several
> cultural assumptions. Do we know for sure that Klingons actually LIKE the
> smell of a rose? If they did, one might expect to find a word for it in o=
ur
> vocabulary. For all we know, Klingons consider roses to be weeds, primari=
ly
> desirable because their thorns improve the qualities of a good fence.
>
> We could solve a couple of cultural issues here if we get back to the
> spirit of the original instead of the specific word choice:
>
> SoSwI=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98IwchabvaD pong pIm vIwIvchugh, pIw =E2=80=98ey He=
=E2=80=99taH.
>
> All of this is just one guy=E2=80=99s opinion, by the way. Just friendly
> suggestion. Take with grain of salt.
>
> lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
> Retired Door Repair Guy
>
> > On Dec 4, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not going into grammatical detail, but that was very good, for a
> newbie.
> >
> > Am 04.12.2014 um 17:11 schrieb Chelsea Knauf:
> >> {'roS' wIpong, 'ej pong pIm wIpongchugh, pIw 'ey He''e' taH}.
> >>
> >> Newbie try. Hopefully somewhere close to correct.
> >
> > --
> > Lieven L. Litaer
> > aka Quvar valer 'utlh
> > http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
> > http://wiki.qepHom.de
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I appreciate it!=C2=A0 Thanks for taking the time to expla=
in.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, =
Dec 4, 2014 at 11:30 AM, <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7=
wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Okay, then. I will go into gramm=
atical detail, agreeing that for being new with the language, you got a lot=
of it right.<br>
<br>
Let=E2=80=99s go word by word, and not take this so much as a critique as i=
t is an opportunity for education. With the first word, the education simpl=
y has to do with what the rest of us have settled on for conventions of pun=
ctuation. You have:<br>
<br>
=E2=80=98roS=E2=80=99<br>
<br>
The problem is that an apostrophe, in the Romanized Klingon alphabet used i=
n The Klingon Dictionary, is not punctuation. It=E2=80=99s an actual letter=
of the alphabet; a consonant, like a =E2=80=9Ct=E2=80=9D or a =E2=80=9Cp=
=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s the sound you make in the middle of the =E2=80=9Coo=
ps=E2=80=9D word =E2=80=9Cuh-oh=E2=80=9D (or rather the way you stop making=
sound in the middle of the word =E2=80=9Cuh-oh=E2=80=9D). It=E2=80=99s the=
phonetic equivalent of that hyphen in uh-oh. The main difference is that i=
n Klingon, you don=E2=80=99t just use it to separate one syllable from anot=
her. You can begin or end a syllable with this =E2=80=9Csound=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
So, you can=E2=80=99t use it for quotations. Here on the list, we=E2=80=99v=
e informally come to agree that you use << and >> as quotation =
marks in Klingon text. So, simply correcting this one reasonable error, we=
=E2=80=99d have:<br>
<br>
{<<roS>> wIpong, =E2=80=98ej pong pIm wIpongchugh, pIw =E2=80=
=98ey He=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 taH}.<br>
<br>
As you have already picked up, we use curly braces {} to surround Klingon t=
ext, but usually, we do that when the Klingon text is streamed amid English=
text, as I would do if I wanted to mention the Klingon word {roS}. If we w=
rite Klingon on a separate line from any English text, we don=E2=80=99t usu=
ally bother with the braces.<br>
<br>
Meanwhile, you don=E2=80=99t really want the Klingon word {roS}. You want a=
transliteration of the word =E2=80=9Crose=E2=80=9D, which pronounces the =
=E2=80=9Cs=E2=80=9D with a =E2=80=9Cz=E2=80=9D sound that is alien to Kling=
on. It=E2=80=99s a sound that isn=E2=80=99t part of the language, the way t=
hat the French =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D and the German =E2=80=9Cch" are not=
a part of the English language.<br>
<br>
Until you have more experience with transliteration, you probably want to j=
ust keep English names English. Since we know that a lowercase =E2=80=9Cs=
=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t exist in Klingon, it=E2=80=99s not confusing if w=
e say:<br>
<br>
<<rose>> wIpong =E2=80=98ej pong pIm wIpongchugh, =E2=80=A6<br>
<br>
This is fine as is. It might be nice to expand on the beginning a little, j=
ust to be clearer:<br>
<br>
tIvamvaD <<rose>> wIpong =E2=80=98ach pong pIm wIpongchugh, =E2=
=80=A6<br>
<br>
This is totally optional. If context is enough that we all know what you ar=
e talking about when you say =E2=80=9Crose=E2=80=9D, that might work. I jus=
t added a reference to what we are calling a rose. It=E2=80=99s not easy to=
do in Klingon because we don=E2=80=99t have a lot of botany words. English=
dictionaries are FULL of them. Try playing Quiddler or Scrabble without re=
sorting to names of plants or animals and see how far you get.<br>
<br>
I also replaced {=E2=80=98ej} with {=E2=80=98ach} because logically =E2=80=
=9Cand=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=9D mean exactly the same thing, thou=
gh =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=9D carries the additional subjective sense of =E2=80=
=9Cunlike what you might expect=E2=80=9D. In either case, you are using a c=
onjunction that describes a context with two true statements, but if you us=
e =E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D, one usually expects both to be true, and if you us=
e =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=9D, then you might otherwise, having heard the first f=
act, expect the second fact to be false. I like you, but I don=E2=80=99t LI=
KE like you.<br>
<br>
tIvamvaD <<rose>> wIpong =E2=80=98ach pong pIm wIpongchugh, pIw=
=E2=80=98ey He=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e' taH.<br>
<br>
Okay, we have a couple of problems here. You are best served to omit the {=
=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} and use the verb suffix {taH} instead of the separate =
verb {taH}. {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} as a suffix does not belong on a verb, an=
d if you meant to use the pronoun {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} as a way of meaning=
=E2=80=9CIt continues that it emits a pleasurable odor,=E2=80=9D the probl=
em is that {taH} as a verb probably does not take a direct object. The defi=
nition =E2=80=9Ccontinue, go on, endure, survive=E2=80=9D does not really s=
uggest a direct object, and without that, {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} has no gram=
matical function here. The =E2=80=9Csentence as object=E2=80=9D grammatical=
construction is very useful, but those new with the language tend to fall =
to it a bit prematurely to carry a very wide range of thought, much of whic=
h is better served with other constructions.<br>
<br>
tIvamvaD <<rose>> wIpong =E2=80=98ach pong pIm wIpongchugh, pIw=
=E2=80=98ey He=E2=80=99taH.<br>
<br>
This is perfectly serviceable as a translation, though it makes several cul=
tural assumptions. Do we know for sure that Klingons actually LIKE the smel=
l of a rose? If they did, one might expect to find a word for it in our voc=
abulary. For all we know, Klingons consider roses to be weeds, primarily de=
sirable because their thorns improve the qualities of a good fence.<br>
<br>
We could solve a couple of cultural issues here if we get back to the spiri=
t of the original instead of the specific word choice:<br>
<br>
SoSwI=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98IwchabvaD pong pIm vIwIvchugh, pIw =E2=80=98ey He=
=E2=80=99taH.<br>
<br>
All of this is just one guy=E2=80=99s opinion, by the way. Just friendly su=
ggestion. Take with grain of salt.<br>
<br>
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh<br>
Retired Door Repair Guy<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
> On Dec 4, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Lieven <<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx=
.de">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I'm not going into grammatical detail, but that was very good, for=
a newbie.<br>
><br>
> Am 04.12.2014 um 17:11 schrieb Chelsea Knauf:<br>
>> {'roS' wIpong, 'ej pong pIm wIpongchugh, pIw 'ey H=
e''e' taH}.<br>
>><br>
>> Newbie try.=C2=A0 Hopefully somewhere close to correct.<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Lieven L. Litaer<br>
> aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>
> <a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher</a><br>
> <a href=3D"http://wiki.qepHom.de" target=3D"_blank">http://wiki.qepHom=
.de</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
> <a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=
=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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