[99734] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "Knitting" in Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Steven Boozer)
Tue Nov 4 11:46:18 2014
From: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 16:46:04 +0000
In-Reply-To: <28B8F0FB-735A-471D-812E-CC7EEB82B79F@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Okrand has been asked about {SIv} more than once:
"More recently, however, [Okrand] has made a big joke about how uncertain h=
e is about how {SIv} works. He kept saying, 'I wonder about {SIv},' and the=
n he'd grin." [charghwI']
WM: "...the verb {SIv}, which was really interesting."
MO: "That one, yes. I've wondered about that a lot. I spent a good chunk of=
one summer, one or two summers ago, - I'm not trying to make a pun here, b=
ut - wondering about how that works." [charghwI's IMO, HQ 7.4]
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh [mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 5:59 PM
This would almost support De'vID's phrasing... The canon example's English =
translation fits it, but without {-chugh} in the Klingon version.
mu'qID lughov latlhpu' 'e' vISIv.
I wonder whether or not others recognize the word-joke.
So, basically, when using {'e'} with {SIv}, the translation is more like "w=
onder if, wonder about, wonder whether or not."
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:51 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@k=
th.se>> wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, the only known example of SIv with an object:
{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv.}
http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&get=3Dso=
urce
Marc goes into some detail on this, so he seems to have thought it through:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The fourth example is weird from an English translation point of view, but =
it falls right in line in Klingon. If the English translation matched the p=
attern of the other three sentences, it would be "I wonder that you speak K=
lingon." In English, this means something like "I'm surprised that you spea=
k Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be that you speak Klingon," bu=
t this is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon sentence means s=
omething more like "I am curious about whether you speak Klingon." The clum=
siness here is the English, not the Klingon.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
So this would seem to support De'vID's phrasing. Yours still works though, =
as far as I can tell, and in some cases may even be preferable, when one wi=
shes to use multiple short sentences instead of a single long one.
However, it's still unresolved how one might say "I wonder where you are." =
or "I wonder what you want." Perhaps Klingons never say anything quite like=
that, butif they do, I think your suggestion (question? + jISIv.)
Regarding questions as objects:
We do have a canon example, from EuroTalk: {nuq Datlhutlh DaneH?}
However, it's worth noting that this is still a question, and {nuq} still f=
ills the same role as in a simple sentence.
In other words, {nuq} doesn't become a relative pronoun or anything like th=
at.
So, this doesn't motivate, say, translating "I wonder what they're drinking=
." as {nuq lutlhutlhtaH 'e' vISIv}
I would instead interpret this Klingon sentence as "What is it that I wonde=
r whether or not they're drinking?", which is not a question I'd expect to =
hear outside of a course on mind-reading.
This particular statement can probably be rephrased as a question (nuq lutl=
hutlhtaH?) in most circumstances, but other statements of wonderment may re=
quire different solutions.
1 nov 2014 kl. 22:10 skrev lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.c=
om<mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>>:
You have a good point, that {-chugh} turns what would be a sentence into a =
dependent clause, and {'e'} is for "Sentence As Object", not "Dependent Cla=
use As Object", but you've apparently missed the use of {neH} meaning "only=
".
The literal translation (if Klingon were a code) would be:
"Well done. I wonder if only I did not see the word-joke."
That makes sense in English, but it doesn't really make sense in Klingon be=
cause, as you point out, the grammar is broken.
I'd go with something like:
nIteb mu'qID vIghovbe'pu''a'? jISIv.
or
mu'qID vIghovbe'pu'. lughovbe'pu''a' latlhpu' je?
Another somewhat controversial grammar issue is whether or not {'e'} works =
with "Question As Object". If that was ever resolved, I don't remember it. =
I'm among the doubters that it works.
For me, that's what makes {SIv} a challenge to use well, except as a simple=
statement.
Though I suspect I'm about to be corrected and reminded of canon I've forgo=
tten...
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:38 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com<mailto:de.vid.j=
onpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
SuStel:
Or not so obvious. 'ach loymeH Quj vIpar.
Voragh:
maj. mu'qID vIleghbe'chugh jIH neH 'e' vISIv. HIchuH!
I read that as "I wonder whether he'd want it, if I didn't see the
word-joke." Doesn't {SIv} already contain the sense of "wonder if"? I
don't think {-chugh} can combine with {SIv} like that, though.
--
De'vID
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Okrand has been asked about=
{SIv} more than once:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">"More recen=
tly, however, [Okrand] has made a big joke about how uncertain he is about =
how {<b>SIv}</b> works. He kept saying, 'I wonder about {<b>SIv}</b>,' and =
then he'd grin." [charghwI']<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><br>
WM: "...the verb {<b>SIv}</b>, which was really interesting." <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">MO: "That o=
ne, yes. I've wondered about that a lot. I spent a good chunk of one summer=
, one or two summers ago, - I'm not trying to make a pun here, but - wonder=
ing about how that works." [charghwI's IMO,
HQ 7.4]<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","=
sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> lojmIt t=
I'wI' nuv 'utlh [mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 01, 2014 5:59 PM<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This would almost support De’vID’s phras=
ing… The canon example’s English translation fits it, but witho=
ut {-chugh} in the Klingon version.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">mu’qID lughov latlhpu’ ‘e’ v=
ISIv.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I wonder whether or not others recognize the word-jo=
ke.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, basically, when using {‘e’} with {SI=
v}, the translation is more like “wonder if, wonder about, wonder whe=
ther or not."<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:51 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <<a =
href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se">felixm@kth.se</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To the best of my knowledge, the only known example =
of SIv with an object:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv.}<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=
=3D1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&get=3Dsource">http://klingonska.org/canon/se=
arch/?file=3D1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&get=3Dsource</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marc goes into some detail on this, so he seems to h=
ave thought it through:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word"><span style=3D"font-family:"UICTF=
ontTextStyleBody","serif"">The fourth example is weird from =
an English translation point of view, but it falls right in line in Klingon=
. If the English translation matched the pattern of the other three sentenc=
es, it would be "I wonder that you speak Klingon." In English, th=
is means something like "I'm surprised that you speak Klingon" or=
"I don't understand how it can be that you speak Klingon," but t=
his is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon sentence means some=
thing more like "I am curious about whether you speak Klingon." T=
he clumsiness here is the English, not the Klingon.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word"><span style=3D"font-family:"UICTF=
ontTextStyleBody","serif"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word"><span style=3D"font-family:"UICTF=
ontTextStyleBody","serif"">So this would seem to support De'=
vID's phrasing. Yours still works though, as far as I can tell, and in some=
cases may even be preferable, when one wishes to use multiple short senten=
ces instead of a single long one.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word"><span style=3D"font-family:"UICTF=
ontTextStyleBody","serif"">However, it's still unresolved ho=
w one might say "I wonder where you are." or "I wonder what =
you want." Perhaps Klingons never say anything quite like that, butif =
they do, I think your suggestion (question? + jISIv.)</span><o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regarding questions as objects:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We do have a canon example, from EuroTalk: {nuq Datl=
hutlh DaneH?}<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, it's worth noting that this is still a ques=
tion, and {nuq} still fills the same role as in a simple sentence.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In other words, {nuq} doesn't become a relative pron=
oun or anything like that.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, this doesn't motivate, say, translating "I =
wonder what they're drinking." as {nuq lutlhutlhtaH 'e' vISIv}<o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would instead interpret this Klingon sentence as &=
quot;What is it that I wonder whether or not they're drinking?", which=
is not a question I'd expect to hear outside of a course on mind-reading.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This particular statement can probably be rephrased =
as a question (nuq lutlhutlhtaH?) in most circumstances, but other statemen=
ts of wonderment may require different solutions.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
1 nov 2014 kl. 22:10 skrev lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <<a href=3D"mailto:lo=
jmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You have a good point, that {-chugh} turns what woul=
d be a sentence into a dependent clause, and {‘e’} is for ̶=
0;Sentence As Object”, not “Dependent Clause As Object”, =
but you’ve apparently missed the use of {neH} meaning “onlyR=
21;.<br>
<br>
The literal translation (if Klingon were a code) would be:<br>
<br>
"Well done. I wonder if only I did not see the word-joke."<br>
<br>
That makes sense in English, but it doesn’t really make sense in Klin=
gon because, as you point out, the grammar is broken.<br>
<br>
I’d go with something like:<br>
<br>
nIteb mu’qID vIghovbe’pu’’a’? jISIv.<br>
<br>
or<br>
<br>
mu’qID vIghovbe’pu’. lughovbe’pu’’aR=
17; latlhpu' je?<br>
<br>
Another somewhat controversial grammar issue is whether or not {‘e=
217;} works with “Question As Object”. If that was ever resolve=
d, I don’t remember it. I’m among the doubters that it works.<b=
r>
<br>
For me, that’s what makes {SIv} a challenge to use well, except as a =
simple statement.<br>
<br>
Though I suspect I’m about to be corrected and reminded of canon I=
217;ve forgotten...<br>
<br>
lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh<br>
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:38 AM, De'vID <<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">SuStel:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Or not so obvious. 'ach loymeH Quj vIpar.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Voragh:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">maj. mu'qID vIleghbe'chugh jIH neH 'e' vISIv. =
HIchuH!<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I read that as "I wonder whether he'd want it, =
if I didn't see the<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">word-joke." Doesn't {SIv} already contain the s=
ense of "wonder if"? I<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">don't think {-chugh} can combine with {SIv} like tha=
t, though.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">De'vID<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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