[99714] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "Knitting" in Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Sat Nov 1 18:59:21 2014
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2014 18:58:59 -0400
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <B3862BF4-064F-42B7-88CA-6CD277C5A716@kth.se>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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This would almost support De=92vID=92s phrasing=85 The canon example=92s =
English translation fits it, but without {-chugh} in the Klingon =
version.
mu=92qID lughov latlhpu=92 =91e=92 vISIv.
I wonder whether or not others recognize the word-joke.
So, basically, when using {=91e=92} with {SIv}, the translation is more =
like =93wonder if, wonder about, wonder whether or not."
lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
> On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:51 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
>=20
> To the best of my knowledge, the only known example of SIv with an =
object:
>=20
> {tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv.}
> =
http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&get=3Ds=
ource =
<http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&get=3D=
source>
>=20
> Marc goes into some detail on this, so he seems to have thought it =
through:
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> The fourth example is weird from an English translation point of view, =
but it falls right in line in Klingon. If the English translation =
matched the pattern of the other three sentences, it would be "I wonder =
that you speak Klingon." In English, this means something like "I'm =
surprised that you speak Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be =
that you speak Klingon," but this is not what the Klingon sentence =
means. The Klingon sentence means something more like "I am curious =
about whether you speak Klingon." The clumsiness here is the English, =
not the Klingon.
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> So this would seem to support De'vID's phrasing. Yours still works =
though, as far as I can tell, and in some cases may even be preferable, =
when one wishes to use multiple short sentences instead of a single long =
one.
> However, it's still unresolved how one might say "I wonder where you =
are." or "I wonder what you want." Perhaps Klingons never say anything =
quite like that, butif they do, I think your suggestion (question? + =
jISIv.)
> Regarding questions as objects:
>=20
> We do have a canon example, from EuroTalk: {nuq Datlhutlh DaneH?}
>=20
> However, it's worth noting that this is still a question, and {nuq} =
still fills the same role as in a simple sentence.
> In other words, {nuq} doesn't become a relative pronoun or anything =
like that.
>=20
> So, this doesn't motivate, say, translating "I wonder what they're =
drinking." as {nuq lutlhutlhtaH 'e' vISIv}
> I would instead interpret this Klingon sentence as "What is it that I =
wonder whether or not they're drinking?", which is not a question I'd =
expect to hear outside of a course on mind-reading.
>=20
> This particular statement can probably be rephrased as a question (nuq =
lutlhutlhtaH?) in most circumstances, but other statements of wonderment =
may require different solutions.
>=20
> 1 nov 2014 kl. 22:10 skrev lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh =
<lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com <mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>>:
>=20
>> You have a good point, that {-chugh} turns what would be a sentence =
into a dependent clause, and {=91e=92} is for =93Sentence As Object=94, =
not =93Dependent Clause As Object=94, but you=92ve apparently missed the =
use of {neH} meaning =93only=94.
>>=20
>> The literal translation (if Klingon were a code) would be:
>>=20
>> "Well done. I wonder if only I did not see the word-joke."
>>=20
>> That makes sense in English, but it doesn=92t really make sense in =
Klingon because, as you point out, the grammar is broken.
>>=20
>> I=92d go with something like:
>>=20
>> nIteb mu=92qID vIghovbe=92pu=92=92a=92? jISIv.
>>=20
>> or
>>=20
>> mu=92qID vIghovbe=92pu=92. lughovbe=92pu=92=92a=92 latlhpu' je?
>>=20
>> Another somewhat controversial grammar issue is whether or not {=91e=92=
} works with =93Question As Object=94. If that was ever resolved, I =
don=92t remember it. I=92m among the doubters that it works.
>>=20
>> For me, that=92s what makes {SIv} a challenge to use well, except as =
a simple statement.
>>=20
>> Though I suspect I=92m about to be corrected and reminded of canon =
I=92ve forgotten...
>>=20
>> lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh
>> Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:38 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com =
<mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> SuStel:
>>>>> Or not so obvious. 'ach loymeH Quj vIpar.
>>>=20
>>> Voragh:
>>>> maj. mu'qID vIleghbe'chugh jIH neH 'e' vISIv. HIchuH!
>>>=20
>>> I read that as "I wonder whether he'd want it, if I didn't see the
>>> word-joke." Doesn't {SIv} already contain the sense of "wonder if"? =
I
>>> don't think {-chugh} can combine with {SIv} like that, though.
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> De'vID
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
>>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">This would almost support De=92vID=92s =
phrasing=85 The canon example=92s English translation fits it, but =
without {-chugh} in the Klingon version.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">mu=92qID lughov latlhpu=92 =91e=92 =
vISIv.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
wonder whether or not others recognize the word-joke.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, basically, when =
using {=91e=92} with {SIv}, the translation is more like =93wonder if, =
wonder about, wonder whether or not."</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">=
<div class=3D""><div class=3D"">lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh</div><div =
class=3D"">Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:51 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <<a =
href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se" class=3D"">felixm@kth.se</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DWindows-1252" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">To the best of my knowledge, the only known example of =
SIv with an object:</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv.}</div>
<div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt=
&get=3Dsource" =
class=3D"">http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-06-holqed-07-2.=
txt&get=3Dsource</a></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Marc goes into some detail on this, so he seems to have =
thought it through:</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>
<div class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody" class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space: =
normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=3D"">The fourth =
example is weird from an English translation point of view,
but it falls right in line in Klingon. If the English translation =
matched the
pattern of the other three sentences, it would be "I wonder that you =
speak
Klingon." In English, this means something like "I'm surprised that you
speak Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be that you speak
Klingon," but this is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon
sentence means something more like "I am curious about whether you speak
Klingon." The clumsiness here is the English, not the =
Klingon.</span></font></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody" class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space: =
normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" =
class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span></font></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody" class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space: =
normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);" class=3D"">So this =
would seem to support De'vID's phrasing. Yours still works though, as =
far as I can tell, and in some cases may even be preferable, when one =
wishes to use multiple short sentences instead of a single long =
one.</span></font></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody" class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space: =
normal;" class=3D"">However, it's still unresolved how one might say "I =
wonder where you are." or "I wonder what you want." Perhaps Klingons =
never say anything quite like that, butif they do, I think your =
suggestion (question? + jISIv.)</span></font></pre>
</div>
<div class=3D"">Regarding questions as objects:</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">We do have a canon example, from EuroTalk: {nuq =
Datlhutlh DaneH?}</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">However, it's worth noting that this is still a =
question, and {nuq} still fills the same role as in a simple =
sentence.</div>
<div class=3D"">In other words, {nuq} doesn't become a relative pronoun =
or anything like that.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">So, this doesn't motivate, say, translating "I wonder =
what they're drinking." as {nuq lutlhutlhtaH 'e' vISIv}</div>
<div class=3D"">I would instead interpret this Klingon sentence as "What =
is it that I wonder whether or not they're drinking?", which is not a =
question I'd expect to hear outside of a course on mind-reading.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">This particular statement can probably be rephrased as a =
question (nuq lutlhutlhtaH?) in most circumstances, but other statements =
of wonderment may require different solutions.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
1 nov 2014 kl. 22:10 skrev lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>>:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span class=3D"">You have a good point, that {-chugh} =
turns what would be a sentence into a dependent clause, and {=91e=92} is =
for =93Sentence As Object=94, not =93Dependent Clause As Object=94, but =
you=92ve apparently missed the use of {neH} meaning =93only=94.</span><br =
class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">The literal translation (if Klingon were a code) would =
be:</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">"Well done. I wonder if only I did not see the =
word-joke."</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">That makes sense in English, but it doesn=92t really =
make sense in Klingon because, as you point out, the grammar is =
broken.</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">I=92d go with something like:</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">nIteb mu=92qID vIghovbe=92pu=92=92a=92? =
jISIv.</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">or</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">mu=92qID vIghovbe=92pu=92. lughovbe=92pu=92=92a=92 =
latlhpu' je?</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">Another somewhat controversial grammar issue is whether =
or not {=91e=92} works with =93Question As Object=94. If that was ever =
resolved, I don=92t remember it. I=92m among the doubters that it =
works.</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">For me, that=92s what makes {SIv} a challenge to use =
well, except as a simple statement.</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">Though I suspect I=92m about to be corrected and =
reminded of canon I=92ve forgotten...</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">On Nov 1, 2014, at =
2:38 AM, De'vID <<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">SuStel:</span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Or not so obvious. =
'ach loymeH Quj vIpar.</span><br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Voragh:</span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">maj. mu'qID =
vIleghbe'chugh jIH neH 'e' vISIv. HIchuH!</span><br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">I read that as "I =
wonder whether he'd want it, if I didn't see the</span><br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">word-joke." =
Doesn't {SIv} already contain the sense of "wonder if"? I</span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">don't think =
{-chugh} can combine with {SIv} like that, though.</span><br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">-- </span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">De'vID</span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D""></span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol =
mailing list</span><br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a></span><br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></span><br=
class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br=
class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a></span><br class=3D"">
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class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></span><br=
class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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