[99710] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "Knitting" in Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Sat Nov 1 17:52:14 2014
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2014 21:51:46 +0000
In-Reply-To: <5BEC32CB-2DC9-4ADD-8FA8-ECBD1672BAA3@gmail.com>
Cc: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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To the best of my knowledge, the only known example of SIv with an object:
{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv.}
http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&get=3Dso=
urce
Marc goes into some detail on this, so he seems to have thought it through:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The fourth example is weird from an English translation point of view,
but it falls right in line in Klingon. If the English translation matched t=
he
pattern of the other three sentences, it would be "I wonder that you speak
Klingon." In English, this means something like "I'm surprised that you
speak Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be that you speak
Klingon," but this is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon
sentence means something more like "I am curious about whether you speak
Klingon." The clumsiness here is the English, not the Klingon.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
So this would seem to support De'vID's phrasing. Yours still works though, =
as far as I can tell, and in some cases may even be preferable, when one wi=
shes to use multiple short sentences instead of a single long one.
However, it's still unresolved how one might say "I wonder where you are." =
or "I wonder what you want." Perhaps Klingons never say anything quite like=
that, butif they do, I think your suggestion (question? + jISIv.)
Regarding questions as objects:
We do have a canon example, from EuroTalk: {nuq Datlhutlh DaneH?}
However, it's worth noting that this is still a question, and {nuq} still f=
ills the same role as in a simple sentence.
In other words, {nuq} doesn't become a relative pronoun or anything like th=
at.
So, this doesn't motivate, say, translating "I wonder what they're drinking=
." as {nuq lutlhutlhtaH 'e' vISIv}
I would instead interpret this Klingon sentence as "What is it that I wonde=
r whether or not they're drinking?", which is not a question I'd expect to =
hear outside of a course on mind-reading.
This particular statement can probably be rephrased as a question (nuq lutl=
hutlhtaH?) in most circumstances, but other statements of wonderment may re=
quire different solutions.
1 nov 2014 kl. 22:10 skrev lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.c=
om<mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>>:
You have a good point, that {-chugh} turns what would be a sentence into a =
dependent clause, and {=91e=92} is for =93Sentence As Object=94, not =93Dep=
endent Clause As Object=94, but you=92ve apparently missed the use of {neH}=
meaning =93only=94.
The literal translation (if Klingon were a code) would be:
"Well done. I wonder if only I did not see the word-joke."
That makes sense in English, but it doesn=92t really make sense in Klingon =
because, as you point out, the grammar is broken.
I=92d go with something like:
nIteb mu=92qID vIghovbe=92pu=92=92a=92? jISIv.
or
mu=92qID vIghovbe=92pu=92. lughovbe=92pu=92=92a=92 latlhpu' je?
Another somewhat controversial grammar issue is whether or not {=91e=92} wo=
rks with =93Question As Object=94. If that was ever resolved, I don=92t rem=
ember it. I=92m among the doubters that it works.
For me, that=92s what makes {SIv} a challenge to use well, except as a simp=
le statement.
Though I suspect I=92m about to be corrected and reminded of canon I=92ve f=
orgotten...
lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:38 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com<mailto:de.vid.j=
onpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
SuStel:
Or not so obvious. 'ach loymeH Quj vIpar.
Voragh:
maj. mu'qID vIleghbe'chugh jIH neH 'e' vISIv. HIchuH!
I read that as "I wonder whether he'd want it, if I didn't see the
word-joke." Doesn't {SIv} already contain the sense of "wonder if"? I
don't think {-chugh} can combine with {SIv} like that, though.
--
De'vID
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<div>To the best of my knowledge, the only known example of SIv with an obj=
ect:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv.}</div>
<div><a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-06-holqed-0=
7-2.txt&get=3Dsource">http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-0=
6-holqed-07-2.txt&get=3Dsource</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Marc goes into some detail on this, so he seems to have thought it thr=
ough:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody">=
<span style=3D"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0=
);">The fourth example is weird from an English translation point of view,
but it falls right in line in Klingon. If the English translation matched t=
he
pattern of the other three sentences, it would be "I wonder that you s=
peak
Klingon." In English, this means something like "I'm surprised th=
at you
speak Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be that you spea=
k
Klingon," but this is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon
sentence means something more like "I am curious about whether you spe=
ak
Klingon." The clumsiness here is the English, not the Klingon.</span><=
/font></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody">=
<span style=3D"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0=
);">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span></font></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody">=
<span style=3D"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0=
);">So this would seem to support De'vID's phrasing. Yours still works thou=
gh, as far as I can tell, and in some cases may even be preferable, when on=
e wishes to use multiple short sentences instead of a single long one.</spa=
n></font></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody">=
<span style=3D"white-space: normal;">However, it's still unresolved how one=
might say "I wonder where you are." or "I wonder what you w=
ant." Perhaps Klingons never say anything quite like that, butif they =
do, I think your suggestion (question? + jISIv.)</span></font></pre>
</div>
<div>Regarding questions as objects:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We do have a canon example, from EuroTalk: {nuq Datlhutlh DaneH?}</div=
>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, it's worth noting that this is still a question, and {nuq} st=
ill fills the same role as in a simple sentence.</div>
<div>In other words, {nuq} doesn't become a relative pronoun or anything li=
ke that.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, this doesn't motivate, say, translating "I wonder what they'r=
e drinking." as {nuq lutlhutlhtaH 'e' vISIv}</div>
<div>I would instead interpret this Klingon sentence as "What is it th=
at I wonder whether or not they're drinking?", which is not a question=
I'd expect to hear outside of a course on mind-reading.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This particular statement can probably be rephrased as a question (nuq=
lutlhutlhtaH?) in most circumstances, but other statements of wonderment m=
ay require different solutions.</div>
<div><br>
1 nov 2014 kl. 22:10 skrev lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <<a href=3D"mailto:lo=
jmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><span>You have a good point, that {-chugh} turns what would be a sente=
nce into a dependent clause, and {=91e=92} is for =93Sentence As Object=94,=
not =93Dependent Clause As Object=94, but you=92ve apparently missed the u=
se of {neH} meaning =93only=94.</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>The literal translation (if Klingon were a code) would be:</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>"Well done. I wonder if only I did not see the word-joke."<=
/span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>That makes sense in English, but it doesn=92t really make sense in Kl=
ingon because, as you point out, the grammar is broken.</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>I=92d go with something like:</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>nIteb mu=92qID vIghovbe=92pu=92=92a=92? jISIv.</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>or</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>mu=92qID vIghovbe=92pu=92. lughovbe=92pu=92=92a=92 latlhpu' je?</span=
><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Another somewhat controversial grammar issue is whether or not {=91e=
=92} works with =93Question As Object=94. If that was ever resolved, I don=
=92t remember it. I=92m among the doubters that it works.</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>For me, that=92s what makes {SIv} a challenge to use well, except as =
a simple statement.</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>Though I suspect I=92m about to be corrected and reminded of canon I=
=92ve forgotten...</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh</span><br>
<span>Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:38 AM, De'vID <<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrot=
e:</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>SuStel:</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Or not so obvious. 'ach loymeH Quj vIpar.</=
span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Voragh:</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>maj. mu'qID vIleghbe'chugh jIH neH 'e=
' vISIv. HIchuH!</span><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>I read that as "I wonder whether he'd =
want it, if I didn't see the</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>word-joke." Doesn't {SIv} already cont=
ain the sense of "wonder if"? I</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>don't think {-chugh} can combine with {SIv}=
like that, though.</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>-- </span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>De'vID</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>___________________________________________=
____</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlh=
ingan-hol@kli.org</a></span><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/list=
info/tlhingan-hol">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></s=
pan><br>
</blockquote>
<span></span><br>
<span></span><br>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
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<span><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a></spa=
n><br>
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