[99650] in tlhIngan-Hol
[Tlhingan-hol] Fwd: Beginner's Grammarian
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Casey Ransberger)
Thu Oct 23 09:02:30 2014
From: Casey Ransberger <casey.obrien.r@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 06:02:10 -0700
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Whoops. *hic.* This was meant for the list. Every other mailman list I'm on h=
as reply_goes_to_list set.=20
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Casey Ransberger <casey.obrien.r@gmail.com>
> Date: October 23, 2014 at 5:51:46 AM PDT
> To: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner's Grammarian
> I've clipped the original message to the parts I wanted to talk about. Any=
one seeking context can look at the list archive. My comments are inline. It=
's longish, sorry about that.=20
>=20
>> On Oct 22, 2014, at 6:41 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gma=
il.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s not about ego. It=E2=80=99s all about respect for the langua=
ge and the learning of it. We each find our own path to acquiring skill with=
the language. There has never been an easy, straightforward path. The chall=
enge is part of the reward.
>=20
> These words are good.=20
>=20
> I would argue that the only sure-fire way to learn a language is to go som=
ewhere where you will be immersed in it. The closest thing we seem to have t=
o that place is a (relatively) quiet mailing list.=20
>=20
>> You are proving that you can do something that few others in the world ca=
n do.
>=20
> Can't help pointing out that you've just contradicted your own argument. I=
f it isn't about ego, why prove that you can do something which others canno=
t?
>=20
> I am unsure. When we talk about what people *can* do, what people are *abl=
e* to do, sometimes we confuse being-able with wanting-to.
>=20
> It seems true that very few people have accomplished fluency. 22 years ago=
, one of mom's friends gave me the dictionary, because: give the dictionary y=
ou can't make sense of to the apparent genius child who's as into Star Trek a=
s you are, right? I studied it, stupidly, alone. None of the other kids care=
d about understanding what the Klingons were saying, so I was sort of workin=
g with a book in a vacuum.=20
>=20
> Many years later, really, recently, I fell in with some learning researche=
rs, and they taught me that the way you learn a language is by being immerse=
d in it. Constructed languages don't enjoy the benefit of a place where ever=
yone speaks them.=20
>=20
> This is why I'm bothering with the mailing list. There are people who spea=
k the language here. This is the closest I can get to learning French by liv=
ing in Paris.=20
>=20
>> Most people would argue that it=E2=80=99s a silly thing,
>=20
> Most people will make fun of you. Screw most people. Most people are blind=
and deaf. Most people aren't dumb though, they sure do talk.=20
>=20
>> though they mysteriously seem less bothered by people memorizing performa=
nce statistics on football players or technical specifications of high perfo=
rmance automobiles. Like that=E2=80=99s more useful in the real world.
>=20
> Sounds like we had similar childhoods.=20
>=20
>> Right.
>>=20
>> There is no reason to do this. You don=E2=80=99t do it for a reason. You j=
ust do it. It proves something of yourself.
>=20
> This is actually the thing I wanted to argue about. These four sentences. T=
here are a whole lot of good reasons for learning a conlang. One might be: h=
aving a language which a group of people can discuss in linguistic terms wit=
hout anyone having the advantage that native speakers tend to have, or the c=
onverse disadvantage.
>=20
> It also (as in the case of a language invented for something like Star Tre=
k) gives us a way to find each other. The value of finding one another shoul=
d not be underestimated.
>=20
> I hope I haven't been out of line here.
>=20
>> lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
>> Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
>=20
> P.S.
>=20
> I walked into the local supermarket and there was a big poster with the Kl=
ingon flag. I thought that I'd realized that I was dreaming, because why wou=
ld there be a Klingon flag at the supermarket, especially *right* after I'd d=
ecided to renew my effort to learn the language? It had to be a dream. Then I=
looked down, and saw a stock of Klingon Warhog beer. It's really not great (=
should be more aggressive flavor-wise) but it isn't the Pabst-in-a-Star-Trek=
-can that I was expecting. There's a bit of richness to the flavor. Not terr=
ible, anyway.=20
>=20
> Anyway, had three, did the idiot thing and posted on a mailing list afterw=
ards...
>=20
> Casey
>=20
> P.P.S.
>=20
> Duhhh
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Whoops. *hic.* This was meant for the l=
ist. Every other mailman list I'm on has reply_goes_to_list set. <br><b=
r>Begin forwarded message:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><b>From:=
</b> Casey Ransberger <<a href=3D"mailto:casey.obrien.r@gmail.com">casey.=
obrien.r@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Date:</b> October 23, 2014 at 5:51:46 AM PD=
T<br><b>To:</b> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nu=
v@gmail.com">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> <b>Re: [Tl=
hingan-hol] Beginner's Grammarian</b><br><br></div></blockquote><div><span><=
/span></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>I've clipped the original m=
essage to the parts I wanted to talk about. Anyone seeking context can look a=
t the list archive. My comments are inline. It's longish, sorry about that. <=
/span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>On Oct 22, 2014, a=
t 6:41 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gma=
il.com">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><br></blockquote><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><span>It=E2=80=99s not about ego. It=E2=80=99s all about respect for the l=
anguage and the learning of it. We each find our own path to acquiring skill=
with the language. There has never been an easy, straightforward path. The c=
hallenge is part of the reward.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><spa=
n>These words are good. </span><br><span></span><br><span>I would argue that=
the only sure-fire way to learn a language is to go somewhere where you wil=
l be immersed in it. The closest thing we seem to have to that place is a (r=
elatively) quiet mailing list. </span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>You are proving that you can do something that few others in th=
e world can do.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Can't help poi=
nting out that you've just contradicted your own argument. If it isn't about=
ego, why prove that you can do something which others cannot?</span><br><sp=
an></span><br><span>I am unsure. When we talk about what people *can* do, wh=
at people are *able* to do, sometimes we confuse being-able with wanting-to.=
</span><br><span></span><br><span>It seems true that very few people have ac=
complished fluency. 22 years ago, one of mom's friends gave me the dictionar=
y, because: give the dictionary you can't make sense of to the apparent geni=
us child who's as into Star Trek as you are, right? I studied it, stupidly, a=
lone. None of the other kids cared about understanding what the Klingons wer=
e saying, so I was sort of working with a book in a vacuum. </span><br><span=
></span><br><span>Many years later, really, recently, I fell in with some le=
arning researchers, and they taught me that the way you learn a language is b=
y being immersed in it. Constructed languages don't enjoy the benefit of a p=
lace where everyone speaks them. </span><br><span></span><br><span>This is w=
hy I'm bothering with the mailing list. There are people who speak the langu=
age here. This is the closest I can get to learning French by living in Pari=
s. </span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Most people w=
ould argue that it=E2=80=99s a silly thing,</span><br></blockquote><span></s=
pan><br><span>Most people will make fun of you. Screw most people. Most peop=
le are blind and deaf. Most people aren't dumb though, they sure do talk. </=
span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>though they myster=
iously seem less bothered by people memorizing performance statistics on foo=
tball players or technical specifications of high performance automobiles. L=
ike that=E2=80=99s more useful in the real world.</span><br></blockquote><sp=
an></span><br><span>Sounds like we had similar childhoods. </span><br><span>=
</span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Right.</span><br></blockquote><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><span>There is no reason to do this. You don=E2=80=99t do it for a reason=
. You just do it. It proves something of yourself.</span><br></blockquote><s=
pan></span><br><span>This is actually the thing I wanted to argue about. The=
se four sentences. There are a whole lot of good reasons for learning a=
conlang. One might be: having a language which a group of people can discus=
s in linguistic terms without anyone having the advantage that native speake=
rs tend to have, or the converse disadvantage.</span><br><span></span><br><s=
pan>It also (as in the case of a language invented for something like Star T=
rek) gives us a way to find each other. The value of finding one another sho=
uld not be underestimated.</span><br><span></span><br><span>I hope I haven't=
been out of line here.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><span>lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh</span><br></blockquot=
e><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</span><=
br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>P.S.</span><br><span></span><br><span=
>I walked into the local supermarket and there was a big poster with the Kli=
ngon flag. I thought that I'd realized that I was dreaming, because why woul=
d there be a Klingon flag at the supermarket, especially *right* after I'd d=
ecided to renew my effort to learn the language? It had to be a dream. Then I=
looked down, and saw a stock of Klingon Warhog beer. It's really not great (=
should be more aggressive flavor-wise) but it isn't the Pabst-in-a-Star-Trek=
-can that I was expecting. There's a bit of richness to the flavor. Not terr=
ible, anyway. </span><br><span></span><br><span>Anyway, had three, did the i=
diot thing and posted on a mailing list afterwards...</span><br><span></span=
><br><span>Casey</span><br><span></span><br><span>P.P.S.</span><br><span></s=
pan><br><span>Duhhh</span></div></blockquote></body></html>=
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