[99069] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] vagh jaj, vagh 'uy' DarSeq je
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Brent Kesler)
Fri Jun 27 11:51:32 2014
In-Reply-To: <BLU436-SMTP1102FDDFB9A335C69F387EDD21B0@phx.gbl>
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 11:51:13 -0400
From: Brent Kesler <brent.of.all.people@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 8:18 AM, Gaerfindel <gaerfindel@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> P.S. I know the comparative it wonky, but I couldn't think of a better
> way to express the need to fmore money that would accomplish more. Any
> suggestions are most welcome!
>
I was wondering about comparatives just last night. Here's my general
thinking. It's easy when the comparison is a straightforward "This noun is
more adjective than that noun." For example:
1. batlh potlh law' yIn potlh puS [TKW]
Honor is more important than life.
It gets a little more complicated when you want to compare ideas rather
than just nouns.
2. QamvIS Hegh qaq law', torvIS yIn qaq puS [TKW]
Better to die on our feet than live on our knees.
We can dissect this all day, I'm sure. We could see {QamvIS Hegh} and
{torvIS yIn} as noun phrases, that way they fit the standard [A Q law', B Q
puS] formula. So far so good.
However, there is a certain kind of comparative that comes naturally to me
in English that I struggle with in Klingon: "This noun verbs a more
adjective something than that noun verbs." Specifically, I've been trying
to write something like "Riders on horseback can dominate a larger
territory than an army on foot." I came up with this:
3. ? yer'e' lughatlhlaH Sargh lIghwI'pu' tIn law', (yer'e') ghatlhlaH
yItnISbogh mangghom tIn puS.
Here's my thinking. Look back at sentence 2. We could see {QamvIS Hegh} and
{torvIS yIn} as sentences, while {qaq law'} and {qaq puS} are "comparative
commentaries" on those sentences. I expect a lot of people here will find
that controversial.
So let's try a more conventional approach:
4. ? yer'e' lughatlhlaHbogh Sargh lIghwI'pu' tIn law', (yer'e')
ghatlhlaHbogh mangghom tIn puS.
This is mostly straightforward. I've recast "This noun verbs a more
adjective something than that noun verbs" into "The something which this
noun verbs is more adjective than the something which that noun verbs."
I've used {-bogh} to turn my sentences into noun phrases which fit into the
standard formula.
But I don't like this strategy. I've always found verbs that have both
{-bogh} and an object to be awkward, so I avoid them. Also, notice that in
sentence 4 I deleted a word that I used in sentence 3.
3a. yer'e' ghatlhlaH yItnISbogh mangghom
An army which must walk dominates a territory.
4a. yer'e' ghatlhlaHbogh mangghom
The territory which an army dominates.
4b. ? yer'e' ghatlhlaHbogh yItnISbogh mangghom
The territory that is dominated by an army which must walk.
That {yItnISbogh} is a key part of the idea I'm trying to communicate. it's
doubtful that riders on horseback can control a larger territory than any
army in general; it's important to specify that the army is *on foot*. I'm
already trying to avoid {-bogh} and now I'm using it twice! And I'm not
even sure it's grammatical. So I prefer sentence 3 over sentence 4.
At this point, I'm thinking a comparative is not the best strategy for my
sentence. Perhaps I should try something like this:
5. yer tIn ghatlhlaH yItnISbogh mangghom, 'ach yer tInqu' lughatlhlaH
Sargh lIghwI'pu'.
But do I really mean to say that an army on foot can control a large
territory? Not really, just that the riders on horseback can control a
larger one.
6. yer mach ghatlhlaH yItnISbogh mangghom, 'ach yer tIn lughatlhlaH Sargh
lIghwI'pu'.
But do I really mean to imply that an army on foot can only control a small
territory? Not really, only that it will be smaller than the territory that
riders on horseback can control.
Sentences 5 and 6 aren't as precise as I would like them to be, but they're
a lot less awkward than my attempted comparatives.
But there's another sort of comparative that's easier to state in English
than in Klingon: "This noun verbs more adverbly than that noun."
7. nom puv DujwIj
My ship flies quickly.
But how to say, "My ship flies faster than your ship"? There are no verbs
of quality meaning "be fast" or "be slow" (at least, I can't find any). But
there are adverbs {nom} and {QIt}.
8. nom puv DujwIj, 'ej QIt puv DujlIj.
My ship flies quickly, and your ship flies slowly.
But do I really mean to say your ship is slow? [sigh] Not really.
bI'reng
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On F=
ri, Jun 27, 2014 at 8:18 AM, Gaerfindel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:gaerfindel@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gaerfindel@hotmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><br>
P.S. =C2=A0I know the comparative it wonky, but I couldn't think of a b=
etter way to express the need to fmore money that would accomplish more. =
=C2=A0Any suggestions are most welcome!<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
><br></div>
<div>I was wondering about comparatives just last night. =C2=A0Here's m=
y general thinking. It's easy when the comparison is a straightforward =
"This noun is more adjective than that noun." For example:</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A01.=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:arial,s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px">batlh potlh law' yIn potlh puS [TKW]</span></=
div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Honor is more important than life.</span><div>
<br></div><div><br></div><div>It gets a little more complicated when you wa=
nt to compare ideas rather than just nouns.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A02. QamvIS Hegh qaq law', torvIS yIn qa=
q puS [TKW]</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Better to die on our feet =
than live on our knees.</div><div><br></div><div>We can dissect this all da=
y, I'm sure. We could see {QamvIS Hegh} and {torvIS yIn} as noun phrase=
s, that way they fit the standard [A Q law', B Q puS] formula. So far s=
o good.</div>
<div><br></div><div>However, there is a certain kind of comparative that co=
mes naturally to me in English that I struggle with in Klingon: "This =
noun verbs a more adjective something than that noun verbs." Specifica=
lly, I've been trying to write something like "Riders on horseback=
can dominate a larger territory than an army on foot." I came up with=
this:</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A03. ? yer'e' lughatlhlaH Sargh lIgh=
wI'pu' tIn law', (yer'e') ghatlhlaH yItnISbogh mangghom=
tIn puS.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Here's my thinkin=
g. Look back at sentence 2. We could see {QamvIS Hegh} and {torvIS yIn} as =
sentences, while {qaq law'} and {qaq puS} are "comparative comment=
aries" on those sentences. I expect a lot of people here will find tha=
t controversial.</div>
<div><br></div><div>So let's try a more conventional approach:</div><di=
v><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A04. ? yer'e' lughatlhlaHbogh Sargh lIg=
hwI'pu' tIn law', (yer'e') ghatlhlaHbogh mangghom tIn p=
uS.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>This is mostly straightforward. I've=
recast "This noun verbs a more adjective something than that noun ver=
bs" into "The something which this noun verbs is more adjective t=
han the something which that noun verbs." I've used {-bogh} to tur=
n my sentences into noun phrases which fit into the standard formula.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But I don't like this strategy. I've always fou=
nd verbs that have both {-bogh} and an object to be awkward, so I avoid the=
m. Also, notice that in sentence 4 I deleted a word that I used in sentence=
3.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A03a. yer'e' ghatlhlaH yItnISbogh ma=
ngghom</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An army which must walk =
dominates a territory.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A04a. yer'e&=
#39; ghatlhlaHbogh mangghom</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The=
territory which an army dominates.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A04b. ? yer'e' ghatlhlaHbogh yItnISb=
ogh mangghom</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The territory that=
is dominated by an army which must walk.</div><div><br></div><div><br></di=
v><div>That {yItnISbogh} is a key part of the idea I'm trying to commun=
icate. it's doubtful that riders on horseback can control a larger terr=
itory than any army in general; it's important to specify that the army=
is *on foot*. I'm already trying to avoid {-bogh} and now I'm usin=
g it twice! And I'm not even sure it's grammatical. So I prefer sen=
tence 3 over sentence 4.</div>
<div><br></div><div><div>At this point, I'm thinking a comparative is n=
ot the best strategy for my sentence. Perhaps I should try something like t=
his:</div></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A05. yer tIn ghatlhlaH yItnI=
Sbogh mangghom, 'ach yer tInqu' lughatlhlaH Sargh lIghwI'pu'=
;.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>But do I really mean to say that an army=
on foot can control a large territory? Not really, just that the riders on=
horseback can control a larger one.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 6. yer=
mach ghatlhlaH yItnISbogh mangghom, 'ach yer tIn lughatlhlaH Sargh lIg=
hwI'pu'.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>But do I really mean to imply that an ar=
my on foot can only control a small territory? Not really, only that it wil=
l be smaller than the territory that riders on horseback can control.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Sentences 5 and 6 aren't as precise as I would like=
them to be, but they're a lot less awkward than my attempted comparati=
ves.</div><div><br></div><div>But there's another sort of comparative t=
hat's easier to state in English than in Klingon: "This noun verbs=
more adverbly than that noun."</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A07. nom puv DujwIj</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0My ship flies quickly.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
>But how to say, "My ship flies faster than your ship"? There are=
no verbs of quality meaning "be fast" or "be slow" (at=
least, I can't find any). But there are adverbs {nom} and {QIt}.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A08. nom puv DujwIj, 'ej QIt puv DujlIj.=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My ship flies quickly, and your ship =
flies slowly.</div><div><br></div><div>But do I really mean to say your shi=
p is slow? [sigh] Not really.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>bI'reng</div>
</div></div></div>
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