[99049] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] emphasizing noun suffixes
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Fiat Knox)
Wed Jun 25 10:04:50 2014
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 15:04:37 +0100
From: Fiat Knox <fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CABDLMbWJ_Zg0v1aweUgpjO+Z6TYrPHcUXmGkn4NpaMeG-qJutA@mail.gmail.com>
Reply-To: Fiat Knox <fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Side note: use of -na'/-Hey noun suffixes against -law'/bej verb suffixes.=
=0A=0A=0AThe noun suffix -na' definite doesn't carry the same meaning as th=
e verb suffix -bej certainly, undoubtedly.=0A=0Ajaghpu'Hey vIlegh I see app=
arent enemies (I see them; they look like enemies)=0A=0Ajaghpu'na' vIlegh I=
see definite enemies (I see them; they identify as enemies beyond doubt)=
=0Ajaghpu' vIleghlaw' I think I see enemies (I am looking for enemies; I th=
ink I can see the enemies I seek)=0Ajaghpu' vIleghbej I undoubtedly see ene=
mies (I am confident beyond doubt that I am looking at the enemies)=0A=0ATh=
e verb suffix casts doubt upon the act of seeing; in other words, the doubt=
rests with the veracity of your own nervous system as the observer. Are yo=
u seeing them or not? You might believe yourself to be under the influence =
of hallucinogens, hypnosis or Talosian mind control, for example.=0A=0A=0AT=
he noun suffix casts the doubt of certainty onto the object. There is no do=
ubt in your sensors or senses: what you see is what is there. The question =
becomes one of identification of what you are seeing; non-hostile misidenti=
fied, apparent enemy that only looks hostile but might not be, or definite =
enemy.=0ABack to the topic - could the emphasis be related by stressing the=
syllable vocally?=0A=0A'uQ/Hey/wIj DaSop'a' rIntaH Did you eat my apparent=
dinner?=0A(the thing on my plate looked like dinner; did you eat it?)=0A=
=0A'uQHey/wIj/ DaSop'a' rIntaH Did you eat /my/ apparent dinner?=0A(the thi=
ng on all our plates looked like dinner - was it /my/ apparent dinner you a=
te, or yours?)=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Wednesday, 25 June 2014, 14:42, Andr=E9 =
M=FCller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:=0A =0A=0A>=0A>=0A>But then you are =
saying that nouns would work differently from verbs in Klingon. We know tha=
t in Klingon verbs the suffixes do not necessarily describe "everything to =
the left of it", {-nIS} goes to slot 2 and means 'need to', {-laH} goes to =
slot 5 and means 'be able to', but {jIlaDnISlaH} can still mean 'I need to =
be able to read' and not (necessarily) 'I am able to need to read', which i=
s a possible interpretation, but simply doesn't make much sense, semantical=
ly. So in verbs, suffixes mainly refer back to the verb in general. Rovers =
are an exception, their scopus is on whatever comes left to them.=0A>=0A>I =
don't see a reason why nouns should work differently in Klingon. {jaghpu'na=
'} means that the concept ENEMY is modified to mean plurality and definiten=
ess. So it's more than one enemy, and they're definite. The {-na'} could re=
fer to the enemy-ness alone. So {jaghpu'na'} can mean specifiy that it's de=
finitely sure that we're talking about someone hostile, but it might not be=
as sure that it's many of them. {jaghpu'na'} only confirms with certainty =
that it's enemies, not necessarily that they are many.=0A>=0A>In short: It'=
s not true that non-rover suffixes say something about all that comes befor=
e them.=0A>=0A>I was going to say that all non-rover suffixes refer just ba=
ck to the original verb or noun stem, but that might not be true either.=0A=
>=0A>- Andr=E9=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>2014-06-25 15:11 GMT+02:00 SuStel <sustel=
@trimboli.name>:=0A>=0A>On 6/25/2014 5:39 AM, Lieven wrote:=0A>>=0A>>The wo=
rd {jaghpu'na'} could mean "definitely enemies" (that is, there's=0A>>>no q=
uestion that those people you're talking about are enemies and not=0A>>>fri=
ends or neutral parties or whatever), but, in the proper context, it=0A>>>c=
ould also mean "definitely (several or a lot of) enemies," focusing on=0A>>=
>the group or plurality.=0A>>>=0A>>{-na'} is a confirmation that everything=
to the left of it accurately describes the thing. This includes any plural=
suffix. {jaghpu'na'} "the word {jaghpu'} is definitely the correct word fo=
r this concept" confirms that the {-pu'} belongs. In cases where there's no=
need to confirm that {jagh} is the right noun, but where the difference be=
tween {wa' jagh} and {jaghpu'} is in question, {jaghpu'na'} will obviously =
have the effect of confirming the questionable {-pu'} part.=0A>>=0A>>-- =0A=
>>SuStel=0A>>http://www.trimboli.name/=0A>>=0A>>___________________________=
____________________=0A>>Tlhingan-hol mailing list=0A>>Tlhingan-hol@kli.org=
=0A>>http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A>____=
___________________________________________=0A>Tlhingan-hol mailing list=0A=
>Tlhingan-hol@kli.org=0A>http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol=
=0A>=0A>=0A>
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Co=
urier New, courier, monaco, monospace, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div styl=
e=3D"" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Side note: use of -na'/-Hey n=
oun suffixes against -law'/bej verb suffixes.<br style=3D""></span></div><d=
iv class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.3333px; font-fami=
ly: Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; background-color: tran=
sparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" cl=
ass=3D""></span></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-si=
ze: 13.3333px; font-family: Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif=
; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" clas=
s=3D"">The noun suffix -na' definite doesn't carry the same meaning as the =
verb suffix -bej certainly, undoubtedly.</span></div><div class=3D"" style=
=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: Courier
New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; fo=
nt-style: normal;"><br style=3D"" class=3D""></div><div class=3D"" style=3D=
"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: Courier New,courie=
r,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: n=
ormal;">jaghpu'Hey vIlegh I see apparent enemies (I see them; they look lik=
e enemies)<br style=3D"" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""></span></di=
v><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.3333px; font-=
family: Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; background-color: =
transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" class=3D"">jaghpu'na' vI=
legh I see definite enemies (I see them; they identify as enemies beyond do=
ubt)</span></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 1=
3.3333px; font-family: Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; bac=
kground-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" class=3D"=
">jaghpu' vIleghlaw' I
think I see enemies (I am looking for enemies; I think I can see the enemi=
es I seek)</span></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-s=
ize: 13.3333px; font-family: Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-seri=
f; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" cla=
ss=3D"">jaghpu' vIleghbej I undoubtedly see enemies (I am confident beyond =
doubt that I am looking at the enemies)</span></div><div class=3D"" style=
=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.3333px; font-family: Courier New,cou=
rier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style=
: normal;"><br style=3D"" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""></span></d=
iv><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.3333px; font=
-family: Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; background-color:=
transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" class=3D"">The verb suf=
fix casts doubt upon the act of seeing; in other words, the doubt rests wit=
h the veracity of your
own nervous system as the observer. Are you seeing them or not? You might =
believe yourself to be under the influence of hallucinogens, hypnosis or Ta=
losian mind control, for example.<br style=3D"" class=3D""></span></div><di=
v class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.3333px; font-famil=
y: Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; background-color: trans=
parent; font-style: normal;"><br style=3D"" class=3D""><span style=3D"" cla=
ss=3D""></span></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-siz=
e: 13.3333px; font-family: Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif;=
background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" class=
=3D"">The noun suffix casts the doubt of certainty onto the object. There i=
s no doubt in your sensors or senses: what you see is what is there. The qu=
estion becomes one of identification of what you are seeing; non-hostile mi=
sidentified, apparent enemy that only looks hostile but might not be, or de=
finite
enemy.</span></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size=
: 13.3333px; font-family: Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif; =
background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br style=3D"" class=3D=
""><span style=3D"" class=3D""></span></div>Back to the topic - could the e=
mphasis be related by stressing the syllable vocally?<br style=3D"" class=
=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"">'uQ/Hey/wIj DaSop'a' rIntaH Did you eat my =
apparent dinner?<br style=3D"" class=3D"">(the thing on my plate looked lik=
e dinner; did you eat it?)<br style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D=
"">'uQHey/wIj/ DaSop'a' rIntaH Did you eat /my/ apparent dinner?<br>(the th=
ing on all our plates looked like dinner - was it /my/ apparent dinner you =
ate, or yours?)<br><br><br style=3D"" class=3D""><div class=3D"qtdSeparateB=
R"><br><br></div><div style=3D"display: block;" class=3D"yahoo_quoted"> <di=
v class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Courier New, courier, monaco, monospace,=
sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,=
Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"" class=
=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"> <font style=3D"" class=3D"" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> O=
n Wednesday, 25 June 2014, 14:42, Andr=E9 M=FCller <esperantist@gmail.co=
m> wrote:<br style=3D"" class=3D""> </font> </div> <blockquote class=3D"=
" style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margi=
n-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <br style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" =
class=3D""> <div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D"" id=3D"yiv=
6108501262"><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"lt=
r"><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" cl=
ass=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D"">But then you=
are saying that nouns would work differently from verbs in Klingon. We kno=
w that in Klingon verbs the suffixes do not necessarily describe "everythin=
g to the left of it", {-nIS} goes to slot 2 and means 'need to',
{-laH} goes to slot 5 and means 'be able to', but {jIlaDnISlaH} can still =
mean 'I need to be able to read' and not (necessarily) 'I am able to need t=
o read', which is a possible interpretation, but simply doesn't make much s=
ense, semantically. So in verbs, suffixes mainly refer back to the verb in =
general. Rovers are an exception, their scopus is on whatever comes left to=
them.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A<br style=3D"" class=3D""=
clear=3D"none"></div>I don't see a reason why nouns should work differentl=
y in Klingon. {jaghpu'na'} means that the concept ENEMY is modified to mean=
plurality and definiteness. So it's more than one enemy, and they're defin=
ite. The {-na'} could refer to the enemy-ness alone. So {jaghpu'na'} can me=
an specifiy that it's definitely sure that we're talking about someone host=
ile, but it might not be as sure that it's many of them. {jaghpu'na'} only =
confirms with certainty that it's enemies, not necessarily that they are ma=
ny.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A<br style=3D"" class=3D"" cl=
ear=3D"none"></div>In short: It's not true that non-rover suffixes say some=
thing about all that comes before them.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"n=
one"></div><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div>I was going to sa=
y that all non-rover suffixes refer just back to the original verb or noun =
stem, but that might not be true either.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"=
none">=0A<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div>- Andr=E9<br style=
=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=
=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><d=
iv style=3D"" class=3D"" id=3D"yiv6108501262yqtfd48546"><div style=3D"" cla=
ss=3D"">2014-06-25 15:11 GMT+02:00 SuStel <span style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymail=
to=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:sustel@=
trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>:<br style=3D"" class=3D"=
" clear=3D"none">=0A<blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">On 6/25/2014 5:39 AM, Lieven wrote=
:<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A<blockquote class=3D"" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">=0AThe =
word {jaghpu'na'} could mean "definitely enemies" (that is, there's<br styl=
e=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0Ano question that those people you're ta=
lking about are enemies and not<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A=
friends or neutral parties or whatever), but, in the proper context, it<br =
style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0Acould also mean "definitely (severa=
l or a lot of) enemies," focusing on<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none=
">=0Athe group or plurality.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A</b=
lockquote>=0A<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A{-na'} is a confir=
mation that everything to the left of it accurately describes the thing. Th=
is includes any plural suffix. {jaghpu'na'} "the word {jaghpu'} is definite=
ly the correct word for this concept" confirms that the {-pu'} belongs. In =
cases where there's no need to confirm that {jagh} is the right noun, but w=
here the difference between {wa' jagh} and {jaghpu'} is in question, {jaghp=
u'na'} will obviously have the effect of confirming the questionable {-pu'}=
part.<span style=3D"" class=3D""><font style=3D"" class=3D"" color=3D"#888=
888"><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A=0A<br style=3D"" class=3D=
"" clear=3D"none">=0A-- <br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0ASuStel<=
br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A<a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"=
nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name=
/">http://www.trimboli.name/</a><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=
=0A<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A____________________________=
__<u style=3D"" class=3D""></u>_________________<br style=3D"" class=3D"" c=
lear=3D"none">=0ATlhingan-hol mailing list<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=
=3D"none">=0A<a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymail=
to=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Tlhinga=
n-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"n=
one">=0A<a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"=
_blank" href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol">http://m=
ail.kli.org/mailman/<u style=3D"" class=3D""></u>listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><=
br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=0A</font></span></blockquote></div=
><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div><br style=
=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D"" id=3D"yqtfd55367">_____________=
__________________________________<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">=
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><a style=
=3D"" class=3D"" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" hre=
f=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br style=3D"" cl=
ass=3D"" clear=3D"none"><a style=3D"" class=3D"" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"htt=
p://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">http://ma=
il.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=
=3D"none"></div><br style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D""></div> =
</blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div></body></html>
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