[98901] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Tue Jun 17 20:37:08 2014
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 20:36:39 -0400
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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"It's logical that it would be a word, since {'arlogh} is a word, and since=
{'ar} is the question word replaced by a number, and {-logh} is a number s=
uffix, that since {-DIch} is a number suffix, you could put it on {'ar}, to=
o, but that's an assumption that has not been backed up by either use in ca=
non or grammatical discussion or description by Marc Okrand."
Maybe it's not a word because of the irregularity you pointed out.
-----Original Message-----
From: "lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Sent: =E2=80=8E6/=E2=80=8E17/=E2=80=8E2014 5:01 PM
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq
The point that has been made that you seem to have missed is that *{'arDIch=
} is apparently not a word.
It's logical that it would be a word, since {'arlogh} is a word, and since =
{'ar} is the question word replaced by a number, and {-logh} is a number su=
ffix, that since {-DIch} is a number suffix, you could put it on {'ar}, too=
, but that's an assumption that has not been backed up by either use in can=
on or grammatical discussion or description by Marc Okrand.
So, the word *{'arDIch} is not a word, and discussing it further is futile.
The only use of {-DIch} that is valid is applying it to a number to be func=
tionally equivalent of what happens in English when you add "th" to "5" to =
make "5th".
On Jun 17, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Brad Wilson <bmacliam@aol.com> wrote:
>>>If I ask, "Which door do you choose?", it's still simple {lojmIt 'arDIch=
DawIv?} You answer "I choose the third door." {lojmIt wejDIch vIwIv.}<<< I=
f {'arDIch} really means "which" in the sense of "one of a choice of option=
s", then I could answer with {lojmItvatlh vIwIv} (pointing to my selection)=
or {lojmIt SuD vIwIv} and not use {-DIch} at all.The question I was asking=
earlier:>>>Is there are requirement that if the question uses {'arDIch} th=
at the answer must use {number-DIch}?It would seem that {-DIch} is a "seque=
ntial" marker that identifies its headword=20
either by appearance to the speaker, or importance, or by some other criter=
ion.<<<All uses of {-DIch} that I'm aware of seem to be that of "ordinalizi=
ng" a number, i.e. ordering either in space or time.In English, the word "w=
hich" can have an ordinal sense to it:... "the position in a sequence of do=
ors in front of me" or "the appearance of doors over time (say, walking dow=
n a hall)".But "which" can also mean "a choice from a selection without reg=
ard to order".My question is, without further clarification from MO, can we=
say that {'arDIch} also has this broader meaning of "one of a choice, orde=
r notwithstanding"?gheyIl_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol=
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<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">"It's logic=
al that it would be a word, since {'arlogh} is a word, and since {'ar} is t=
he question word replaced by a number, and {-logh} is a number suffix, that=
since {-DIch} is a number suffix, you could put it on {'ar}, too, but that=
's an assumption that has not been backed up by either use in canon or gram=
matical discussion or description by Marc Okrand."<BR><BR>Maybe it's not a =
word because of the irregularity you pointed out.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<HR>
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; FONT-WEIGH=
T: bold">From: </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,=
sans-serif"><A href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gm=
ail.com</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,=
sans-serif; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent: </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt;=
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">=E2=80=8E6/=E2=80=8E17/=E2=80=8E2014 5:01=
PM</SPAN><BR><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-ser=
if; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To: </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMI=
LY: Calibri,sans-serif"><A href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">tlhIngan Ho=
l mailing list</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: C=
alibri,sans-serif; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject: </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-S=
IZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq</SPAN=
><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The point that has been made that you seem to have missed is that *{'a=
rDIch} is apparently not a word.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It's logical that it would be a word, since {'arlogh} is a word, and s=
ince {'ar} is the question word replaced by a number, and {-logh} is a numb=
er suffix, that since {-DIch} is a number suffix, you could put it on {'ar}=
, too, but that's an assumption that has not been backed up by either use i=
n canon or grammatical discussion or description by Marc Okrand.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So, the word *{'arDIch} is not a word, and discussing it further is fu=
tile.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The only use of {-DIch} that is valid is applying it to a number to be=
functionally equivalent of what happens in English when you add "th" to "5=
" to make "5th".</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jun 17, 2014, at 4:16 PM, Brad Wilson <<A href=3D"mailto:bmaclia=
m@aol.com">bmacliam@aol.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR class=3DApple-interchan=
ge-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><FONT size=3D2 face=3Darial>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT size=3D2><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt;=
FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY:=
arial">>>></SPAN></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY:=
arial, helvetica"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial">If I =
ask, "Which door do you choose?", it's still simple {lojmIt 'arDIch DawIv?}=
</SPAN></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT><FONT face=3D"arial, helvet=
ica">You answer "I choose the third door." {lojmIt wejDIch vIwIv.}</FONT></=
TT></PRE>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV id=3DAOLMsgPart_0_f091bd8c-ff00-4d85-9e69-48eaeeb786b0 style=3D"FONT-S=
IZE: 12px; MARGIN: 0px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><PRE style=3D"F=
ONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helve=
tica, sans-serif"><<< </SPAN></TT></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 9pt"><TT><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">If {'arDIch} =
really means "which" in the sense of "one of a choice of options", then </F=
ONT></TT><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans=
-serif">I could answer with {lojmItvatlh vIwIv} (pointing to my selection) =
or {lojmIt SuD vIwIv} and not use {-DIch} at all.</SPAN></PRE><PRE style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helveti=
ca, sans-serif">The question I was asking earlier:</SPAN></PRE><PRE style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helv=
etica, sans-serif">>>></SPAN></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Is=
there are requirement that if the question uses {'arDIch} that the answer =
</SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, Arial, sans-s=
erif">must use {number-DIch}?</SPAN></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT=
>It would seem that {-DIch} is a "sequential" marker that identifies its he=
adword=20
either by appearance to the speaker, or importance, or by some other criter=
ion.</TT></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helve=
tica, sans-serif"><<<</FONT></TT></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9p=
t"><TT><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">All uses of {-DIch} that=
I'm aware of seem to be that of "ordinalizing" a number, i.e. ordering eit=
her in space or time.</FONT></TT></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT><F=
ONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">In English, the word "which" can =
have an ordinal sense to it:</FONT></TT></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"=
><TT><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">... </FONT></TT><SPAN styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">"the positi=
on in a sequence of doors in front of me" or "the appearance of doors over =
time (say, walking down a hall)".</SPAN></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"=
><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">=
But "which" can also mean "a choice from a selection without regard to orde=
r".</SPAN></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helv=
etica, sans-serif">My question is, without further clarification from MO, c=
an we say that {'arDIch} also has this broader meaning of "one of a choice,=
order notwithstanding"?</FONT></TT></PRE><PRE style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><TT=
><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">gheyIl</FONT></TT></PRE></DIV>=
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