[98896] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Tue Jun 17 10:34:09 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <ACF6622D959A8842A81E4471BA56A7E02F7DBF4A@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 07:33:22 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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=E2=80=98arDIch is not attested, but I think those discussing it are =
finding it implausible that given qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wejDIchDaq, =
qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98arDIch? doesn=E2=80=99t work. I would be =
quite surprised to find that it didn=E2=80=99t.=20
=20
I wouldn=E2=80=99t hesitate to use noun =E2=80=98arDaq as a mu=E2=80=99 =
ru=E2=80=99. Whether =E2=80=98ar is pretending to be a noun or =
pretending to be an adjective there, it just attracts the =E2=80=93Daq =
like nobody=E2=80=99s business.=20
I wasn=E2=80=99t proposing to give anything like this to the beginners. =
It just so happened that my unit on =E2=80=98ar is right after my first =
unit on =E2=80=93Daq, and I try to incorporate material from the =
just-learned unit into each new one, so the urge to combine them brought =
on my need to find out if we=E2=80=99d ever discussed this before.=20
=20
- Qov
=20
From: Steven Boozer [mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu]=20
Sent: June 17, 2014 7:25
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq
=20
This thread is interesting, but *{=E2=80=98arDIch} is not actually =
attested anywhere. (Correct me if I=E2=80=99m wrong.) {-DIch} has only =
been used on numbers (including =E2=80=9Cthe technically ungrammatical =
term {paghDIch} (zeroth)=E2=80=9D) and the noun {Hoch} (i.e. {HochDIch} =
=E2=80=9Callth=E2=80=9D, cf. KGT p.176).
=20
AFAIK {-DIch} has never been used on a =E2=80=9Cquestion word=E2=80=9D =
(who, what, when, where, how, how much). In fact, the only question =
word that has ever taken any suffix of any kind is {=E2=80=98ar}:
=20
st.k (2/1999: {'arlogh} =E2=80=9Chow many times?=E2=80=9D a word that =
functions adverbially, made up of the question word {'ar} =E2=80=9Chow =
much? how many?=E2=80=9D and the special number suffix {-logh} times (as =
in =E2=80=9Csix times=E2=80=9D)
So, although I would easily understand *{lojmIt =E2=80=98arDIch DawIv}, =
it doesn=E2=80=99t appear to be kosher Klingon and would be considered a =
nonce expression or { mu'mey ru}:
KGT 176: Sometimes words or phrases are coined for a specific occasion, =
intentionally violating grammatical rules in order to have an impact. =
Usually these are never heard again, though some gain currency and might =
as well be classified as slang. Klingon grammarians call such forms =
{mu'mey ru'} (temporary words). Sometimes, {mu'mey ru'} fill a =
void--that is, give voice to an idea for which there is no standard (or =
even slang) expression; sometimes, like slang, they are just more =
emphatic ways of expressing an idea. A common way to create these =
constructions is to bend the grammatical rules somewhat, violating the =
norm in a way that is so obvious that there is no question that it is =
being done intentionally. To do this is expressed in Klingon as {pabHa'} =
(misfollow [the rules], follow [the rules] wrongly).
=20
[Note this is the same page that discusses {paghDIch} and {HochDIch}.]
KGT 181: No one accepts such constructions as grammatical; their =
inappropriateness, the way they grate on the Klingon ear, is exactly =
what gives them elocutionary clout. A visitor may hear one of these odd =
suffixes occasionally, but, as with other intentionally ungrammatical =
forms, it is best to avoid using them until one is extremely comfortable =
with the nuances of Klingon style.
=20
In light of this, it=E2=80=99s probably best to avoid these forms in =
lessons for beginners =E2=80=93 which I believe was Qov=E2=80=99s =
original question.
=20
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
=20
=20
=20
From: Brent Kesler [mailto:brent.of.all.people@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 7:52 AM
wanbej He 'e' vIHar:
=20
{lojmIt 'arDIch DawIv?} --> {lojmIt wejDich vIwIv.} --> {lojmIt wej =
vIwIv}.
=20
=20
On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> =
wrote:
I too don=E2=80=99t have a problem with lojmIt =E2=80=98arDIch DawIv? =
being answered with lojmIt wej vIwIv, but understand that it =
isn=E2=80=99t an exact match. I=E2=80=99m not sure what the question =
that matches exactly in English is.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 5:57 PM, <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wrote:
If I ask, "How many doors do you choose?" it's simple. {lojmIt 'ar =
DawIv?} You answer "I choose three doors." {wej lojmIt vIwIv.}
If I ask, "Which door do you choose?", it's still simple {lojmIt 'arDIch =
DawIv?} You answer "I choose the third door." {lojmIt wejDIch vIwIv.}
There doesn't seem to be a way to ask the question that is answered by =
{lojmIt wej vIwIv}. "I choose door #3."
=20
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>=E2=80=98arDIch is not attested, but I think those discussing it are =
finding it implausible that given qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wejDIchDaq, =
qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98arDIch? doesn=E2=80=99t work. I would be =
quite surprised to find that it didn=E2=80=99t. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I wouldn=E2=80=99t hesitate to use noun =E2=80=98arDaq as a =
mu=E2=80=99 ru=E2=80=99. Whether =E2=80=98ar is pretending to be a noun =
or pretending to be an adjective there, it just attracts the =
=E2=80=93Daq like nobody=E2=80=99s business. <br><br>I wasn=E2=80=99t =
proposing to give anything like this to the beginners. It just so =
happened that my unit on =E2=80=98ar is right after my first unit on =
=E2=80=93Daq, and I try to incorporate material from the just-learned =
unit into each new one, so the urge to combine them brought on my need =
to find out if we=E2=80=99d ever discussed this before. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>- Qov<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Steven =
Boozer [mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> June 17, 2014 =
7:25<br><b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>This thread is interesting, but *{=E2=80=98arDIch} is not actually =
attested anywhere. (Correct me if I=E2=80=99m wrong.) =
{-DIch} has only been used on numbers (including =E2=80=9Cthe =
technically ungrammatical term {paghDIch} (zeroth)=E2=80=9D) and the =
noun {Hoch} (i.e. {HochDIch} =E2=80=9Callth=E2=80=9D, cf. KGT =
p.176).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>AFAIK {-DIch} has never been used on a =E2=80=9Cquestion word=E2=80=9D =
(who, what, when, where, how, how much). In fact, the only =
question word that has ever taken any suffix of any kind is =
{=E2=80=98ar}:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>st.k (2/1999: {'arlogh} =E2=80=9Chow many times?=E2=80=9D a word =
that functions adverbially, made up of the question word {'ar} =
=E2=80=9Chow much? how many?=E2=80=9D and the special number suffix =
{-logh} times (as in =E2=80=9Csix times=E2=80=9D)<br><br>So, although I =
would easily understand *{lojmIt =E2=80=98arDIch DawIv}, it =
doesn=E2=80=99t appear to be kosher Klingon and would be considered a =
nonce expression or { mu'mey ru}:<br><br>KGT 176: Sometimes words =
or phrases are coined for a specific occasion, intentionally violating =
grammatical rules in order to have an impact. Usually these are never =
heard again, though some gain currency and might as well be classified =
as slang. Klingon grammarians call such forms {mu'mey ru'} (temporary =
words). Sometimes, {mu'mey ru'} fill a void--that is, give voice to an =
idea for which there is no standard (or even slang) expression; =
sometimes, like slang, they are just more emphatic ways of expressing an =
idea. A common way to create these constructions is to bend the =
grammatical rules somewhat, violating the norm in a way that is so =
obvious that there is no question that it is being done intentionally. =
To do this is expressed in Klingon as {pabHa'} (misfollow [the rules], =
follow [the rules] wrongly).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>[Note this is the same page that discusses {paghDIch} and =
{HochDIch}.]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><br>KGT 181: No one accepts such constructions as grammatical; =
their inappropriateness, the way they grate on the Klingon ear, is =
exactly what gives them elocutionary clout. A visitor may hear one of =
these odd suffixes occasionally, but, as with other intentionally =
ungrammatical forms, it is best to avoid using them until one is =
extremely comfortable with the nuances of Klingon =
style.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>In light of this, it=E2=80=99s probably best to avoid these forms in =
lessons for beginners =E2=80=93 which I believe was Qov=E2=80=99s =
original question.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>--<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Voragh<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>Ca'Non Master of the Klingons<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Brent =
Kesler [<a =
href=3D"mailto:brent.of.all.people@gmail.com">mailto:brent.of.all.people@=
gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 17, 2014 7:52 =
AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US>wanbej He 'e' vIHar:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>{lojmIt 'arDIch DawIv?} --> =
{lojmIt wejDich vIwIv.} --> {lojmIt wej =
vIwIv}.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 12:05 AM, =
Robyn Stewart <<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" =
target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I too don=E2=80=99t have a problem with lojmIt =E2=80=98arDIch DawIv? =
being answered with lojmIt wej vIwIv, but understand that it =
isn=E2=80=99t an exact match. I=E2=80=99m not sure what the question =
that matches exactly in English is.<br><br></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><br></span><span lang=3DEN-US>On Mon, Jun 16, =
2014 at 5:57 PM, <<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>If I ask, "How many doors do =
you choose?" it's simple. {lojmIt 'ar DawIv?} You answer "I =
choose three doors." {wej lojmIt vIwIv.}<br><br>If I ask, =
"Which door do you choose?", it's still simple {lojmIt 'arDIch =
DawIv?} You answer "I choose the third door." {lojmIt wejDIch =
vIwIv.}<br><br>There doesn't seem to be a way to ask the question that =
is answered by {lojmIt wej vIwIv}. "I choose door =
#3."<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></=
body></html>
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