[98889] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Mon Jun 16 23:38:03 2014
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 23:37:43 -0400
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <8D157E89CA62C82-3124-69EC@webmail-d209.sysops.aol.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Ironically, you are suggesting this solution to the person who invented =
this response to how you ask =93Which weapon do you want?=94 and =
subsequently got Okrand=92s approval to my method. At the time, a lot of =
other people were suggesting inappropriate uses of {nuq} for this, since =
many slightly slang versions of the question in English would replace =
the word =93which=94 with =93what=94.
The point here is that, yes, if the number =93three=94 is the name of =
the door identifying it, you can definitely =93ask=94 the =93question=94 =
by commanding the person to identify the door. Meanwhile, that doesn=92t =
answer the question as to whether Klingon might have a way to do it with =
{=91ar} because:
1. The answer that replaces {=91ar} is a number.
2. Numbers in Klingon are grammatically squishy, because sometimes they =
are like stand-alone nouns, while other times they are describing =
explicit nouns and they are treated differently from nouns. We don=92t =
even know for sure if they take noun suffixes, for instance, and if they =
do, we don=92t know if they take a full set, or just a subset, similar =
to the way that adjectival verbs can only take a subset of verb suffixes =
while being used as adjectives.
3. {=91ar} is already exceptional among question words because it is not =
placed where the number would go that replaces it in the answer: {HIvje=92=
=91ar DaneH?} {cha=92 HIje=92 vIneH.}
So, how exceptional is {=91ar}? This is an arbitrary question with one =
arbiter: Marc Okrand. We can guess, but without his explicit description =
of how numbers are used, I would have put numbers after the nouns they =
describe to be more consistent with the language structure, but he =
didn=92t do that. He built in that inconsistency. So, my guess would =
have been wrong.
And you are guessing about whether or not {=91ar} can be used to ask a =
question which would be answered by {lojmIt wej vIwIv.} It=92s a good =
guess, but it has no authority.
We have encountered a little corner of the grammar that has not been =
sufficiently described in the grammar, and for which we have no canon. =
After so many years, it is refreshing to see that there are shadows =
still yearning for light within the language.
lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Brad Wilson <bmacliam@aol.com> wrote:
> >>> ghItlh Steven Boozer:
> If I ask, "Which door do you choose?", it's still simple {lojmIt =
'arDIch DawIv?}=20
> You answer "I choose the third door." {lojmIt wejDIch vIwIv.}
>=20
> There doesn't seem to be a way to ask the question that is answered by =
{lojmIt wej vIwIv}. "I choose door #3."
> >>>
> Is there are requirement that if the question uses {'arDIch} that the =
answer must use {number-DIch}?
> It would seem that {-DIch} is a "sequential" marker that identifies =
its headword either by appearance to the speaker, or importance, or by =
some other criterion.
> To elicit a response of {lojmIt wej vIwIv}, a question of the form =
{lojmIt DawIv 'e' yIngu'} would be in order (which isn't a question at =
all).
> gheyIl
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div>Ironically, you are suggesting this solution to =
the person who invented this response to how you ask =93Which weapon do =
you want?=94 and subsequently got Okrand=92s approval to my method. At =
the time, a lot of other people were suggesting inappropriate uses of =
{nuq} for this, since many slightly slang versions of the question in =
English would replace the word =93which=94 with =
=93what=94.</div><div><br></div><div>The point here is that, yes, if the =
number =93three=94 is the name of the door identifying it, you can =
definitely =93ask=94 the =93question=94 by commanding the person to =
identify the door. Meanwhile, that doesn=92t answer the question as to =
whether Klingon might have a way to do it with {=91ar} =
because:</div><div><br></div><div>1. The answer that replaces {=91ar} is =
a number.</div><div><br></div><div>2. Numbers in Klingon are =
grammatically squishy, because sometimes they are like stand-alone =
nouns, while other times they are describing explicit nouns and they are =
treated differently from nouns. We don=92t even know for sure if they =
take noun suffixes, for instance, and if they do, we don=92t know if =
they take a full set, or just a subset, similar to the way that =
adjectival verbs can only take a subset of verb suffixes while being =
used as adjectives.</div><div><br></div><div>3. {=91ar} is already =
exceptional among question words because it is not placed where the =
number would go that replaces it in the answer: {HIvje=92 =91ar DaneH?} =
{cha=92 HIje=92 vIneH.}</div><div><br></div><div>So, how exceptional is =
{=91ar}? This is an arbitrary question with one arbiter: Marc Okrand. We =
can guess, but without his explicit description of how numbers are used, =
I would have put numbers after the nouns they describe to be more =
consistent with the language structure, but he didn=92t do that. He =
built in that inconsistency. So, my guess would have been =
wrong.</div><div><br></div><div>And you are guessing about whether or =
not {=91ar} can be used to ask a question which would be answered by =
{lojmIt wej vIwIv.} It=92s a good guess, but it has no =
authority.</div><div><br></div><div>We have encountered a little corner =
of the grammar that has not been sufficiently described in the grammar, =
and for which we have no canon. After so many years, it is refreshing to =
see that there are shadows still yearning for light within the =
language.</div><br><div>
<div><div>lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh</div><div>Door Repair Guy, =
Retired Honorably</div></div><div><br></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:11 PM, Brad Wilson <<a =
href=3D"mailto:bmacliam@aol.com">bmacliam@aol.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"arial">
<div style=3D"font-size: 10pt;"><font size=3D"2"><pre style=3D"font-size: =
9pt;"><tt><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">>>> =
ghItlh Steven Boozer:</font></tt></pre><pre style=3D"font-family: arial, =
helvetica; font-size: 9pt;"><tt>If I ask, "Which door do you choose?", =
it's still simple {lojmIt 'arDIch DawIv?}=20
You answer "I choose the third door." {lojmIt wejDIch vIwIv.}
There doesn't seem to be a way to ask the question that is answered by =
{lojmIt wej vIwIv}. "I choose door #3."</tt></pre><pre style=3D"font-size:=
9pt;"><tt><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif">>>></font></tt></pre><pre style=3D"font-size: =
9pt;"><tt><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is there are =
requirement that if the question uses {'arDIch} that the answer must use =
{number-DIch}?</font></tt></pre><pre style=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><tt><font =
face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">It would seem that {-DIch} is a =
"sequential" marker that identifies its headword either by appearance to =
the speaker, or importance, or by some other =
criterion.</font></tt></pre><pre style=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><tt><font =
face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">To elicit a response of {lojmIt =
wej vIwIv}, a question of the form {lojmIt DawIv 'e' yIngu'} would be in =
order (which isn't a question at all).</font></tt></pre><pre =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><tt><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif">gheyIl</font></tt></pre><pre style=3D"font-size: =
9pt;"><tt><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></tt></pre></font></div>
</font>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol =
mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>http://ma=
il.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br></blockquote></div><br></body>=
</html>=
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