[98858] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon surrounding order of pre-OVS elements
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Sat Jun 14 02:17:29 2014
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 02:17:08 -0400
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <014501cf8780$4b9e6870$e2db3950$@flyingstart.ca>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Similar to what others have stated earlier, I think it=92s fine to say, =
=93As a general rule, adverbs precede Type-5 suffixed nouns, but grammar =
isn=92t math or computer programming. There are exceptions to general =
rules, and the exceptions often involve levels of subtlety that a new =
student of the language may learn over time, but should not become =
overly concerned with in the early stages of learning the language."
It=92s like nostrils, scattered all about. You may understand it later, =
but nobody can explain it to you. There is no short-cut to this part of =
the learning process.
Or, to reuse the Harley Davidson bumper sticker: =93If I have to explain =
it, you wouldn=92t understand."
lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
On Jun 13, 2014, at 11:25 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> =
wrote:
> This discussion question concerns the relative order of items that =
precede the OVS structure of a phrase: timestamps, adverbs, and nouns =
bearing type-5 suffixes.
>=20
> TKD 6.1 tells us that the nouns that are neither O nor S precede the =
OVS.
> TKD 6.7 tells us that the usual order is timestamp then adverb, but =
suggests elements other than timestamps might precede the adverb.
>=20
> reH HIvje=92lIjDaq =91Iwghargh Datu=92jaj. shows us that an adverb can =
precede a noun with a type-5
> tlhIngan Dujmey law=92qu=92 SommeyDaq batlh cha=92lu=92. shows that =
the adverb can follow it.
> HaqwI=92=92e=92 DaH yISam shows that it can follow it, but is rather a =
special case.
>=20
> Do we have any canon showing a noun with a type-5 suffix and a =
timestamp in the same sentence? Are there any other examples with a =
type-5 noun suffix and an adverb in the same sentence? (Disregarding neH =
and jay=92). I=92m pretty sure we=92re not so fortunate as to have an =
example with all three.
>=20
> (If someone whose brain is not wired for memorizing or composing wants =
to make a lasting contribution to the language, a concordance that made =
the paq=92batlh searchable on such criteria would be worth its weight in =
gold pressed latinum.)
>=20
> Would anyone be uncomfortable with me telling beginners that the =
information we have suggests that the timestamp should precede the noun =
with the type 5, but that when it improves clarity, the timestamp might =
follow, as the adverb does in the complex phrase above about the emblem =
being emblazoned on hulls?
>=20
> My examples =96 anyone take issue?
>=20
> DaHjaj =91etlhlIjmo=92 maQap.
> wanI=92vammo=92 DaHjaj bInoy.
>=20
> - Qov
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div>Similar to what others have stated earlier, I =
think it=92s fine to say, =93As a general rule, adverbs precede Type-5 =
suffixed nouns, but grammar isn=92t math or computer programming. There =
are exceptions to general rules, and the exceptions often involve levels =
of subtlety that a new student of the language may learn over time, but =
should not become overly concerned with in the early stages of learning =
the language."</div><div><br></div><div>It=92s like nostrils, scattered =
all about. You may understand it later, but nobody can explain it to =
you. There is no short-cut to this part of the learning =
process.</div><div><br></div><div>Or, to reuse the Harley Davidson =
bumper sticker: =93If I have to explain it, you wouldn=92t =
understand."</div><br><div>
<div><div>lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh</div><div>Door Repair Guy, =
Retired Honorably</div></div><div><br></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Jun 13, 2014, at 11:25 PM, Robyn Stewart <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
14.02.5004.000">
<title>Canon surrounding order of pre-OVS elements</title>
<div>
<!-- Converted from text/rtf format --><p dir=3D"LTR"><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">This</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">discussion =
question</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font =
face=3D"Calibri">concerns the relative order of items that precede the =
OVS struc</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">ture =
of a phrase: timestamps, adverbs, and nouns bearing type-5 suffixes.<br>
</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">TKD</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri"> 6.1 tells us that the nouns that are neither O nor S =
precede the OVS.</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">TKD 6.7 tells us that the usual order is =
timestamp then adverb</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">, but suggests elements other than timestamps might =
precede the adverb.</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">reH HIvje=92lIjDaq =91Iwghargh =
Datu=92jaj</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">. =
shows us that an adverb can precede a noun with a type-5<br>
</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">tlhIngan =
Dujmey law=92qu=92</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font =
face=3D"Calibri">SommeyDaq</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri"> batlh cha=92lu=92.</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> shows that the adverb can follow =
it.</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">HaqwI=92=92e=92 DaH yISam shows =
t</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">hat it can =
follow it, but is rather a special case.</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">Do we have any canon showing a noun with a =
type-5</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">suffix =
and a timestamp in the same sentence?</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> Are there any other examples with =
a type-5 noun suffix and a</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">n adverb in the same sentence? (Disregarding neH and =
jay=92)</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">.</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font =
face=3D"Calibri">I=92m pretty sure we=92re not so fortunate as to have =
an example with all three.<br>
<br>
(If someone whose brain is not wired for memorizing or composing wants =
to make a lasting contri</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">bution to the language, a concordance that made the =
paq=92batlh searchable on such criteria would be worth its weight in =
gold pressed latinum.</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">)</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">Would anyone be uncomfortable with me telling =
beginners that the</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font =
face=3D"Calibri">information we have</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> =
<font face=3D"Calibri">suggest</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">s</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri"> that the</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri"> timestamp</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri"> should precede the noun with the</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">t</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">ype</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> 5, but that =
when</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font =
face=3D"Calibri">i</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">t improves clarity</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">,</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca">=
<font face=3D"Calibri">the timestamp might</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> follow</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">, as the adverb =
does</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">in the =
complex phrase</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font =
face=3D"Calibri">above</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font =
face=3D"Calibri">about the em</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">b</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">lem being emblazoned on hulls</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">?</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"></span></p><p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri">My examples</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri"> =96 anyone take issue?</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">DaHjaj =91etlhlIjmo=92 maQap.</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">wanI=92vammo=92 DaHjaj</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> bInoy.</font></span><span =
lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">- Qov</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p><div><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font =
face=3D"Calibri"></font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> </span><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing =
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