[98856] in tlhIngan-Hol
[Tlhingan-hol] Canon surrounding order of pre-OVS elements
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Fri Jun 13 23:25:49 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 20:25:29 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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This discussion question concerns the relative order of items that precede
the OVS structure of a phrase: timestamps, adverbs, and nouns bearing type-5
suffixes.
TKD 6.1 tells us that the nouns that are neither O nor S precede the OVS.
TKD 6.7 tells us that the usual order is timestamp then adverb, but suggests
elements other than timestamps might precede the adverb.
reH HIvje'lIjDaq 'Iwghargh Datu'jaj. shows us that an adverb can precede a
noun with a type-5
tlhIngan Dujmey law'qu' SommeyDaq batlh cha'lu'. shows that the adverb can
follow it.
HaqwI''e' DaH yISam shows that it can follow it, but is rather a special
case.
Do we have any canon showing a noun with a type-5 suffix and a timestamp in
the same sentence? Are there any other examples with a type-5 noun suffix
and an adverb in the same sentence? (Disregarding neH and jay'). I'm pretty
sure we're not so fortunate as to have an example with all three.
(If someone whose brain is not wired for memorizing or composing wants to
make a lasting contribution to the language, a concordance that made the
paq'batlh searchable on such criteria would be worth its weight in gold
pressed latinum.)
Would anyone be uncomfortable with me telling beginners that the information
we have suggests that the timestamp should precede the noun with the type 5,
but that when it improves clarity, the timestamp might follow, as the adverb
does in the complex phrase above about the emblem being emblazoned on hulls?
My examples - anyone take issue?
DaHjaj 'etlhlIjmo' maQap.
wanI'vammo' DaHjaj bInoy.
- Qov
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<TITLE>Canon surrounding order of pre-OVS elements</TITLE>
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<!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">This</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">discussion question</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">concerns the relative order of items that precede =
the OVS struc</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">ture of a phrase: timestamps, adverbs, and nouns =
bearing type-5 suffixes.<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">TKD</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> 6.1 tells us that the nouns that are neither O nor S =
precede the OVS.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">TKD 6.7 tells us that the usual order is =
timestamp then adverb</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">, but suggests elements other than timestamps might =
precede the adverb.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">reH HIvje’lIjDaq ‘Iwghargh =
Datu’jaj</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">. shows us that an adverb can precede a noun with a =
type-5<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">tlhIngan =
Dujmey law’qu’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">SommeyDaq</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> batlh cha’lu’.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> shows that the adverb can follow =
it.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">HaqwI’’e’ DaH yISam shows =
t</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">hat it can =
follow it, but is rather a special case.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">Do we have any canon showing a noun with a =
type-5</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">suffix =
and a timestamp in the same sentence?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> Are there any other examples with =
a type-5 noun suffix and a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">n adverb in the same sentence? (Disregarding neH and =
jay’)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">I’m pretty sure we’re not so fortunate as =
to have an example with all three.<BR>
<BR>
(If someone whose brain is not wired for memorizing or composing wants =
to make a lasting contri</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">bution to the language, a concordance that made the =
paq’batlh searchable on such criteria would be worth its weight in =
gold pressed latinum.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">Would anyone be uncomfortable with me telling =
beginners that the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">information we have</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">suggest</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">s</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> that the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> timestamp</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> should precede the noun with the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">t</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">ype</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> 5, but that =
when</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">i</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">t improves clarity</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">the timestamp =
might</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> =
follow</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">, as the =
adverb does</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">in =
the complex phrase</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">above</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">about the em</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">b</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">lem being emblazoned on hulls</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">My =
examples</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> =
– anyone take issue?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">DaHjaj ‘etlhlIjmo’ =
maQap.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">wanI’vammo’ DaHjaj</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> bInoy.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">- Qov</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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