[98733] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Mon Jun 2 14:39:17 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAHiXx=OQhsqUO3+jGzjWRmw-1CMzja5OxmbkUWcnQk9hZAHMpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 11:38:51 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I mean a few different things in that posting. I=E2=80=99m not sure =
which you were asking for an example of, so I=E2=80=99m combing through =
looking for something I didn=E2=80=99t give examples of.
=20
I already gave the =E2=80=98face up=E2=80=9D example of what I meant by =
an idiom.=20
Here=E2=80=99s an instance where a hockey team owner is oblivious to =
there being anything wrong with saying =E2=80=9Cbroads belong on their =
back=E2=80=9D in a radio interview. It=E2=80=99s old, but that=E2=80=99s =
the society I grew up in. I was reluctant to google the more vulgar =
forms of the statement, and do not wish to discuss this further.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=3D1946 =
<http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=3D1946&dat=3D19790307&id=3D-YgxAAA=
AIBAJ&sjid=3D9qEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3D7063,3335888> =
&dat=3D19790307&id=3D-YgxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3D9qEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3D7063,3335888
=20
We were already discussing the example of DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH =
romuluSngan be'pu', the canon example of the subject of a sentence not =
being the one who has the need specified by =E2=80=93nIS.
jagh mernIS bachlIj was my example of a sentence where the speaker needs =
the thing to happen, not the grammatical subject.
The =E2=80=93law=E2=80=99 analogy I referred to is discussed in this =
thread: http://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/2013/November/msg00068.html. I =
mostly agree with De=E2=80=99vID, but I still think that if I am =
providing a point of view narrative for torgh, I can use suffixes to =
indicate his point of view, such that if he would say nguSDI' vIQoylaw' =
I can write nguSDI=E2=80=99 Qoylaw=E2=80=99 torgh, to mean Torgh had =
some uncertainty about what he heard, and likewise if he would say =
=E2=80=9CmangHey vIlegh=E2=80=9D I can say =E2=80=9CmangHey legh =
torgh.=E2=80=9D In English I could say =E2=80=9CRob saw a =
mouse=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CRob saw what seemed to be a mouse=E2=80=9D =
and have it understood that the seeming was from the characters point of =
view, assuming the narrator was neither omniscient nor another =
character. But I fully agree that I cannot call something that at first =
appears to be a book, but isn=E2=80=99t actually one a paqHey unless I =
am describing the point of view of someone who is still pretty much =
expecting that it=E2=80=99s a book.=20
=20
Whatever the question was, I hope that covers it.
=20
- Qov
=20
From: MorphemeAddict [mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com]=20
Sent: June 2, 2014 10:30
To: Robyn Stewart
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?
=20
Can you give an example of what you mean, Qov?=20
=20
lay'tel SIvten
=20
On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> =
wrote:
I believe the DungDaq legh is exactly that, an idiom for lying on one's =
back, like "face up" in English. We could even say in English. "He was =
lying face up, his head turned to the side," or 'the decapitated bodies =
were laid face up".
The English version of the expression Koord uses is not an original =
formulation, and as a woman I'm quite familiar with the misogynist =
intent of the original. It is intended to mean that woman are good for =
nothing but receptive sex, and does not take the volition of the women, =
or the idea that they have needs or wants of their own into account.
The -lu' and vay' uses of -nIS don't contradict TKD to me, because in =
such case it is an indefinite or non-specific subject that is being said =
to need the thing. I was comparing the use of -nIS on non first-person =
subjects to mean "I need that subject to do that" to using -law' as a =
general sort of "seems like" instead of indicating uncertainty on the =
part of the speaker. I believe the latter usage is incorrect.
Even though that's the only canon, I'm pretty content with -nIS being =
used projectively, despite the definition in TKD, but before I put it in =
the course I wanted to ensure no one would feel that I was counselling =
beginners to do something incorrect.
- Qov
-----Original Message-----
From: De'vID [mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com]
Sent: June 2, 2014 4:35
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> =
wrote:
> Once again I am seeking to satisfy the widest possible range of
> competent Klingon speakers with my interpretation of TKD and canon for =
the beginners=E2=80=99
> course.
>
> We know from TKD that type 2 verb suffixes represent the volition of
> the subject to perform the action of the verb. We also have the
> sentence from Star Trek V: DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH romuluSngan
> be'pu' =3D Romulan women belong on their backs.
This line was filmed, but not part of the final cut of the movie, IIRC. =
It is in the deleted scenes on the DVD, though. I'll accept it as =
close-to-canon, but it's always seemed a little off to me... the =
{DungDaq legh} part doesn't make much sense, since one can obviously lie =
on one's side and still be looking up, unless {DungDaq legh 'ej Qot} is =
some sort of set expression to mean "lie on one's back". But I =
digress...
> Clearly in this sentence Korrd is not describing the actual volition
> of Romulan women, nor what he believes about what they personally
> need, but his own opinion, what they would need to do to satisfy him,
> similar to us saying, =E2=80=9CThat food needs to be in my =
belly.=E2=80=9D
Type 2 indicates volition or predisposition, and I think Koord is =
indicating the lack of volition by the Romulan women, or perhaps (what =
he claims is) the predisposition on their part to lie on their backs.
> I think I say and hear things like this in Klingon all the time. Are
> we correct? Is Korrd=E2=80=99s line an aberration or regionalism? =
Would you
> feel it correct or incorrect to advise beginners to avoid this usage?
>
> Would you accept the sentence:
>
> jagh mernIS bachlIj.
>
> Clearly the shot itself has no volition, it is the speaker (addressing
> the
> gunner) who has the need.
Yes, I'd accept it.
btw, {-nIS} has been used with both {vay'} and {-lu'} in canon.
batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay' - An honourable death requires no =
vengeance.
yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu' - Victory must be earned.
It's interesting that in the English translations, the subjects ("an =
honourable death" and "victory") are things which have no volition, =
although the Klingon are phrased to have an unspecified or indefinite =
subject on the verb with {-nIS}.
There's also {ghob tIvnISbe'lu'} "one need not enjoy virtue" - which =
might perhaps also be translated as "virtue need not be enjoyed".
--
De'vID
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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Tlhingan-hol mailing list
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I mean a few different things in that posting. I=E2=80=99m not sure =
which you were asking for an example of, so I=E2=80=99m combing through =
looking for something I didn=E2=80=99t give examples =
of.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I already gave the =E2=80=98face up=E2=80=9D example of what I meant =
by an idiom. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><br>Here=E2=80=99s an instance where a hockey team owner is oblivious =
to there being anything wrong with saying =E2=80=9Cbroads belong on =
their back=E2=80=9D in a radio interview. It=E2=80=99s old, but =
that=E2=80=99s the society I grew up in. I was reluctant to google the =
more vulgar forms of the statement, and do not wish to discuss this =
further.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><a =
href=3D"http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=3D1946&dat=3D19790307&a=
mp;id=3D-YgxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3D9qEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3D7063,3335888">http:=
//news.google.com/newspapers?nid=3D1946&dat=3D19790307&id=3D-YgxA=
AAAIBAJ&sjid=3D9qEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3D7063,3335888</a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>We were already discussing the example of </span>DungDaq legh 'ej =
QotnIStaH romuluSngan be'pu', the canon example of the subject of a =
sentence not being the one who has the need specified by =
=E2=80=93nIS.<br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>jagh mernIS bachlIj was my example of a sentence where the speaker =
needs the thing to happen, not the grammatical =
subject.<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The =E2=80=93law=E2=80=99 analogy I referred to is discussed in this =
thread: <a =
href=3D"http://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/2013/November/msg00068.html">http=
://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/2013/November/msg00068.html</a>. =C2=A0I =
mostly agree with De=E2=80=99vID, but =C2=A0I still think that if I am =
providing a point of view narrative for torgh, I can use suffixes to =
indicate his point of view, such that if he would say </span>nguSDI' =
vIQoylaw' I can write nguSDI=E2=80=99 Qoylaw=E2=80=99 torgh, to mean =
Torgh had some uncertainty about what he heard, and l<span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>ikewise if he would say =E2=80=9CmangHey vIlegh=E2=80=9D I can say =
=E2=80=9CmangHey legh torgh.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 In English I could say =
=E2=80=9CRob saw a mouse=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CRob saw what seemed to be =
a mouse=E2=80=9D and have it understood that the seeming was from the =
characters point of view, assuming =C2=A0the narrator was neither =
omniscient nor another character. But I fully agree that I cannot call =
something that at first appears to be a book, but isn=E2=80=99t actually =
one a paqHey unless I am describing the point of view of someone who is =
still pretty much expecting that it=E2=80=99s a book. =
<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Whatever the question was, I hope that covers =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>- Qov<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
MorphemeAddict [mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> June 2, 2014 =
10:30<br><b>To:</b> Robyn Stewart<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] =
-nIS : whose volition?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Can you give =
an example of what you mean, =
Qov? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier =
New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>lay'tel =
SIvten<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Robyn Stewart <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" =
target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I believe the DungDaq legh is exactly that, an idiom =
for lying on one's back, like "face up" in English. =
We could even say in English. "He was lying face up, his head =
turned to the side," or 'the decapitated bodies were laid face =
up".<br><br>The English version of the expression Koord uses is not =
an original formulation, and as a woman I'm quite familiar with the =
misogynist intent of the original. It is intended to mean that woman are =
good for nothing but receptive sex, and does not take the volition of =
the women, or the idea that they have needs or wants of their own into =
account.<br><br>The -lu' and vay' uses of -nIS don't contradict TKD to =
me, because in such case it is an indefinite or non-specific subject =
that is being said to need the thing. I was comparing the use of -nIS on =
non first-person subjects to mean "I need that subject to do =
that" to using -law' as a general sort of "seems like" =
instead of indicating uncertainty on the part of the speaker. I believe =
the latter usage is incorrect.<br><br>Even though that's the only canon, =
I'm pretty content with -nIS being used projectively, despite the =
definition in TKD, but before I put it in the course I wanted to ensure =
no one would feel that I was counselling beginners to do something =
incorrect.<br><br>- Qov<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: =
De'vID [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>]<br>S=
ent: June 2, 2014 4:35<br>To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list<br>Subject: Re: =
[Tlhingan-hol] -nIS : whose volition?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Robyn Stewart <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> =
wrote:<br>> Once again I am seeking to satisfy the widest possible =
range of<br>> competent Klingon speakers with my interpretation of =
TKD and canon for the beginners=E2=80=99<br>> course.<br>><br>> =
We know from TKD that type 2 verb suffixes represent the volition =
of<br>> the subject to perform the action of the verb. We also have =
the<br>> sentence from Star Trek V: DungDaq legh 'ej QotnIStaH =
romuluSngan<br>> be'pu' =3D Romulan women belong on their =
backs.<br><br>This line was filmed, but not part of the final cut of the =
movie, IIRC. It is in the deleted scenes on the DVD, though. I'll accept =
it as close-to-canon, but it's always seemed a little off to me... the =
{DungDaq legh} part doesn't make much sense, since one can obviously lie =
on one's side and still be looking up, unless {DungDaq legh 'ej Qot} is =
some sort of set expression to mean "lie on one's back". But I =
digress...<br><br>> Clearly in this sentence Korrd is not describing =
the actual volition<br>> of Romulan women, nor what he believes about =
what they personally<br>> need, but his own opinion, what they would =
need to do to satisfy him,<br>> similar to us saying, =E2=80=9CThat =
food needs to be in my belly.=E2=80=9D<br><br>Type 2 indicates volition =
or predisposition, and I think Koord is indicating the lack of volition =
by the Romulan women, or perhaps (what he claims is) the predisposition =
on their part to lie on their backs.<br><br>> I think I say and hear =
things like this in Klingon all the time. Are<br>> we correct? =
Is Korrd=E2=80=99s line an aberration or regionalism? Would you<br>> =
feel it correct or incorrect to advise beginners to avoid this =
usage?<br>><br>> Would you accept the sentence:<br>><br>> =
jagh mernIS bachlIj.<br>><br>> Clearly the shot itself has no =
volition, it is the speaker (addressing<br>> the<br>> gunner) who =
has the need.<br><br>Yes, I'd accept it.<br><br>btw, {-nIS} has been =
used with both {vay'} and {-lu'} in canon.<br><br>batlh Heghlu'chugh =
noDnISbe' vay' - An honourable death requires no vengeance.<br>yay =
chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu' - Victory must be earned.<br><br>It's interesting =
that in the English translations, the subjects ("an honourable =
death" and "victory") are things which have no volition, =
although the Klingon are phrased to have an unspecified or indefinite =
subject on the verb with {-nIS}.<br><br>There's also {ghob tIvnISbe'lu'} =
"one need not enjoy virtue" - which might perhaps also be =
translated as "virtue need not be =
enjoyed".<br><br>--<br>De'vID<br><br>_______________________________=
________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
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r><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
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:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p =
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