[98727] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Objects with -moH
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Mon Jun 2 11:09:02 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "'lojmIt tI'wI' nuv'" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>,
"'tlhIngan Hol mailing list'" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <31EF4CD6-BC42-4296-A795-2FFD28D0AAB7@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 08:07:09 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Yes, the =E2=80=9Cprefix trick=E2=80=9D and some excellent discussion =
that unites the canon is specifically referenced at the bottom of my =
first e-mail. I=E2=80=99m not confused about the grammar here. I want to =
make sure I=E2=80=99m neither being too careful nor too presumptuous in =
stating what is uncontroversial.
=20
Are you suggesting that I introduce the prefix trick for the beginner =
now, reduce the material presented, or leave it the same? I want the =
beginner to know that there is more here than meets the eye, or they =
will assume some way is correct and start using it. *I* can avoid any =
situation that requires a choice of objects, but without pointing out to =
the beginner that the peril exists, I can=E2=80=99t keep her away from =
it.
=20
- Qov
=20
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv [mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com]=20
Sent: June 2, 2014 4:18
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Objects with -moH
=20
I'm sure I won't be the only person to suggest that the latter example =
given of {ghojmoH} is similar to examples using {nob} with the "prefix =
shortcut" for verbs many have called "ditransitive" referring to an =
indirect object treated as a direct object in order to slightly truncate =
the sentence.=20
=20
Here the implied, truncated translation is "The mother teaches him =
grammar." And since you are not teaching the use of {-vaD}, you can't =
use {SoHvaD}.
=20
Likely, it's good to dodge the topic for beginners and bring this up =
later, at the end of a lesson that DOES teach {-vaD}. It is good to =
point out that while "teach" is a good translation for {ghojmoH}, that =
doesn't make it grammatically different from {ghoj} + {-moH}. Having a =
separate listing in the English->Klingon side of the dictionary does not =
imply a separate Klingon root verb.=20
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 2, 2014, at 2:48 AM, "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca> =
wrote:
Below is an excerpt from the online course lesson where I introduce =
=E2=80=93moH. My aim is to keep my own opinions out of the course, and =
to teach the student only what we KNOW, for the most part avoiding the =
unknown entirely. It=E2=80=99s not really fair to introduce =E2=80=93moH =
and not mention anything about using it with indirect objects. Canon and =
some previous discussions are referenced at the bottom. I am not trying =
to reinvent the wheel here.
I=E2=80=99m not looking for more opinions or theories or justifications =
on how =E2=80=93moH should work. The existence of civil disagreement =
among competent Klingonists is enough for me not to declare for one idea =
or the other. The suffix =E2=80=93vaD is not included in the level one =
grammar, so there=E2=80=99s no reason to go there. I=E2=80=99m just =
checking that I haven=E2=80=99t missed some canon that resolves this, =
and for opinions-expert or beginner=E2=80=94on the level of information =
included. Is there more beginners should know? Should I be more terse =
and simply say that canon is ambiguous on the object of this type of =
verb?
---
Things can get more complicated when =E2=80=93moH is used on a verb that =
could already take an object. This is an area where we don't have all =
the answers. For example, the word <ghojmoH> is formed from <ghoj> =
=E2=80=9Clearn=E2=80=9D plus =E2=80=93moH, and means =E2=80=9Ccause to =
learn=E2=80=9D, normally translated as =E2=80=9Cteach, =
instruct.=E2=80=9D It even has its own listing in TKD as such. But what =
is the object of ghojmoH?=20
Is it the student? That would seem to make sense.=20
ghoj puq. =E2=80=93 The child learns.
?puq ghojmoH SoS. =E2=80=93 The mother causes the child to learn./The =
mother teaches the child.
We have evidence that this is the correct form, as in Power Klingon we =
hear the form <qaghojmoH> I instruct you.
Confusingly, we also have text written by Marc Okrand on a licenced =
trading card, which suggests that the object doesn't necessarily change =
when =E2=80=93moH is added to a verb. The object of ghojmoH may be the =
same as the object of ghoj: the thing learned.
pab ghoj puq. =E2=80=93 The child learns grammar.
?pab ghojmoH SoS. =E2=80=93 The mother teaches grammar.
Maybe it can be either. We have other tools for indicating the second =
object of the verb, but they, and a full discussion of this question, =
are beyond the scope of this course. The purpose of this digression is =
to explain why this course doesn't include instructions on using such =
objects, and to give you some insight into how we know things about the =
Klingon language.
Reference:
TKD 4.2.4 p.38 Type 4: Cause
Skybox card S20 - ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.
Power Klingon - batlh qaghojmoH
Okrand <http://mughom.wikia.com/wiki/MSN?action=3Dedit&redlink=3D1> =
MSN, 6/97 =E2=80=93 Prefix trick
Also perused:
<http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=3D556.25;wap2> =
http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=3D556.25;wap2
<http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069> =
http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069
<http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042> =
http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042 =20
- Qov
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Yes, the =E2=80=9Cprefix trick=E2=80=9D and some excellent discussion =
that unites the canon is specifically referenced at the bottom of my =
first e-mail. I=E2=80=99m not confused about the grammar here. I want to =
make sure I=E2=80=99m neither being too careful nor too presumptuous in =
stating what is uncontroversial.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Are you suggesting that I introduce the prefix trick for the beginner =
now, reduce the material presented, or leave it the same? I want the =
beginner to know that there is more here than meets the eye, or they =
will assume some way is correct and start using it. *<b>I</b>* can avoid =
any situation that requires a choice of objects, but without pointing =
out to the beginner that the peril exists, I can=E2=80=99t keep her away =
from it.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>- Qov<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> lojmIt =
tI'wI' nuv [mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> June 2, =
2014 4:18<br><b>To:</b> tlhIngan Hol mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Tlhingan-hol] Objects with -moH<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm =
sure I won't be the only person to suggest that the latter example given =
of {ghojmoH} is similar to examples using {nob} with the "prefix =
shortcut" for verbs many have called "ditransitive" =
referring to an indirect object treated as a direct object in order to =
slightly truncate the sentence. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Here the implied, truncated translation is "The =
mother teaches him grammar." And since you are not teaching the use =
of {-vaD}, you can't use {SoHvaD}.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Likely, it's good to dodge the topic for beginners and =
bring this up later, at the end of a lesson that DOES teach {-vaD}. It =
is good to point out that while "teach" is a good translation =
for {ghojmoH}, that doesn't make it grammatically different from {ghoj} =
+ {-moH}. Having a separate listing in the English->Klingon side of =
the dictionary does not imply a separate Klingon root =
verb. <br><br>Sent from my iPad<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On Jun 2, 2014, at =
2:48 AM, "Robyn Stewart" <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Below is an excerpt from =
the</span> <span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>online =
course lesson where I introduce =E2=80=93moH. My aim is to keep my own =
opinions out of the course, and to teach the student</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>only what we KNOW, for the =
most part avoiding the unknown entirely. It=E2=80=99s not really fair to =
introduce =E2=80=93moH</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>and</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>not mention anything about =
using it with indirect objects.</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Canon and some previous =
discussions are referenced at the bottom. I am not trying to reinvent =
the wheel here.</span><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I=E2=80=99m not looking for =
more opinions or theories or justifications on how =E2=80=93moH should =
work. The existence of civil disagreement among competent Klingonists is =
enough for me not to declare for one idea or the other. The suffix =
=E2=80=93vaD is not included in the level one grammar, so =
there=E2=80=99s no reason to go there. I=E2=80=99m just checking that I =
haven=E2=80=99t missed some canon that resolves this, and for =
opinions-expert or beginner=E2=80=94on the level of information</span> =
<span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>included. Is there =
more beginners should know?</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Should I be more terse and =
simply say that canon is ambiguous on the object of this type of</span> =
<span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>verb?</span><br><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>---</span><br><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Things can get more =
complicated when =E2=80=93moH is used on a verb that could already take =
an object. This is an area where we don't have all the answers. For =
example, the word <ghojmoH> is formed from</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><ghoj></span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>=E2=80=9Clearn=E2=80=9D =
plus =E2=80=93moH, and means</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>=E2=80=9Ccause to =
learn=E2=80=9D, normally translated as</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>=E2=80=9Cteach, =
instruct.=E2=80=9D It even has its own listing in TKD as such. But what =
is the object of ghojmoH? </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Is it the student? That =
would seem to make sense. <br>ghoj puq. =E2=80=93 The child =
learns.<br>?puq ghojmoH SoS. =E2=80=93 The mother causes the child to =
learn./The mother teaches the child.<br>We have evidence that this is =
the correct form, as in Power Klingon</span> <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>we hear the form</span> =
<span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><qaghojmoH> I =
instruct you.<br><br>Confusingly, we also have text written by Marc =
Okrand on a licenced trading card, which suggests that the object =
doesn't necessarily change when =E2=80=93moH is added to a verb. =
The object of ghojmoH may be the same as the object of ghoj: the thing =
learned.<br><br>pab ghoj puq. =E2=80=93 The child learns =
grammar.<br>?pab ghojmoH SoS. =E2=80=93 The mother teaches =
grammar.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Maybe it can be either. We =
have other tools for indicating the second object of the verb, but they, =
and a full discussion of this question, are beyond the scope of this =
course. The purpose of this digression is to explain why this course =
doesn't include instructions on using such objects, and to give you some =
insight into how we know things about the Klingon =
language.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Reference:</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p><p><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>TKD =
4.2.4 p.38 Type 4: Cause</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Skybox card S20 - =
ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Power Klingon - =
batlh qaghojmoH<br>Okrand</span> <a =
href=3D"http://mughom.wikia.com/wiki/MSN?action=3Dedit&redlink=3D1"><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>MSN</span></a><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>, 6/97 =E2=80=93 Prefix trick</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Also perused:<br></span><a =
href=3D"http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=3D556.25;wap2"><sp=
an =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>http://www.klingon.org/smboa=
rd/index.php?topic=3D556.25;wap2</span></a><br><a =
href=3D"http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069"><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>http://diswww.mit.edu/charon=
.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069</span></a><br><a =
href=3D"http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042"><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>http://diswww.mit.edu/charon=
.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>- =
Qov</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhi=
ngan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol">http://mail.kl=
i.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote>=
</div></body></html>
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