[98725] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Objects with -moH
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Gaerfindel)
Mon Jun 2 08:49:24 2014
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 08:48:46 -0400
From: Gaerfindel <gaerfindel@hotmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <002d01cf7e2e$b54495c0$1fcdc140$@flyingstart.ca>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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On 6/2/2014 2:48 AM, Robyn Stewart wrote:
> Objects with -moH
>
> [E]xpert or beginner---on the level of informationincluded. Is there
> more beginners should know?Should I be more terse and simply say that
> canon is ambiguous on the object of this type ofverb?
> ---
> Things can get more complicated when --moH is used on a verb that
> could already take an object. This is an area where we don't have all
> the answers. For example, the word <ghojmoH>is formed
> from<ghoj>"learn"plus --moH, and means"cause to learn", normally
> translated as"teach, instruct."It even has its own listing in TKD as
> such. But what is the object of ghojmoH?
>
> Is it the student? That would seem to make sense.
> ghoj puq. -- The child learns.
> ?puq ghojmoH SoS. -- The mother causes the child to learn./The mother
> teaches the child.
> We have evidence that this is the correct form, as in Power Klingonwe
> hear the form<qaghojmoH>I instruct you.
>
> Confusingly, we also have text written by Marc Okrand on a licenced
> trading card, which suggests that the object doesn't necessarily
> change when --moH is added to a verb. The object of ghojmoH may be the
> same as the object of ghoj: the thing learned.
>
> pab ghoj puq. -- The child learns grammar.
> ?pab ghojmoH SoS. -- The mother teaches grammar.
>
> Maybe it can be either. We have other tools for indicating the second
> object of the verb, but they, and a full discussion of this question,
> are beyond the scope of this course. The purpose of this digression is
> to explain why this course doesn't include instructions on using such
> objects, and to give you some insight into how we know things about
> the Klingon language.
>
> Reference:
>
> TKD 4.2.4 p.38 Type 4: Cause
>
> Skybox card S20 - ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.
>
> Power Klingon - batlh qaghojmoH
> Okrand_MSN_<http://mughom.wikia.com/wiki/MSN?action=edit&redlink=1>,
> 6/97 -- Prefix trick
>
> Also perused:
> _http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=556.25;wap2_
> _http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069_
> _http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042_
>
> - Qov
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/2/2014 2:48 AM, Robyn Stewart
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<title>Objects with -moH</title>
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<p dir="LTR"><font face="Calibri">[E]</font><span lang="en-ca"><font
face="Calibri">xpert or beginner—on the leve</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">l of information</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">included. Is there more
beginners should know?</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font
face="Calibri">Should I be more terse and simply say that
canon is ambiguous on the object of this type of</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">verb?</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><br>
<font face="Calibri">---</font></span><span lang="en-ca"><br>
<font face="Calibri">Things can get more complicated when –moH
is used on a verb that could already take an object. This is
an area where we don't have all the answers. For example</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">, the word <</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">ghojmoH</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">></font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> is formed from</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri"><</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">ghoj</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">></font></span><span
lang="en-ca"></span><span lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">“</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">learn</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">”</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> plus –moH, and means</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">“</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">cause to learn</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">”</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">, normally translated as</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">“</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">teach, instruct.</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">”</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> It even has its own listing
in TKD as such. But what is the object of ghojmoH? </font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">Is it the
student? That would seem to make sense. <br>
ghoj puq. – The child learns.<br>
?puq ghojmoH SoS. – The mother causes the child to
learn./The mother teaches the child.<br>
We have evidence that this is the correct form, as in Power
Klingon</font></span><span lang="en-ca"></span><span
lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri">we hear the form</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"> <font face="Calibri"><</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">qaghojmoH</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">></font></span><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri"> I instruct you.<br>
<br>
Confusingly, we also have text written by Marc Okrand on a
licenced trading card, which suggests that the object
doesn't necessarily change when –moH is added to a verb.
The object of ghojmoH may be the same as the object of ghoj:
the thing learned.<br>
<br>
pab ghoj puq. – The child learns grammar.<br>
?pab ghojmoH SoS. – The mother teaches grammar.</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">Maybe it can
be either. We have other tools for indicating the second
object of the verb, but they, and a full discussion of this
question, are beyond the scope of this course. The purpose
of this digression is to explain why this course doesn't
include instructions on using such objects, and to give you
some insight into how we know things about the Klingon
language.</font></span><span lang="en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">Reference:</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"></span><span lang="en-ca"><font
face="Courier New" size="2">TKD 4.2.4 p.38 Type 4: Cause<br>
</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Skybox
card S20 - ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Courier New" size="2">Power
Klingon - batlh qaghojmoH<br>
Okrand</font></span><span lang="en-ca"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://mughom.wikia.com/wiki/MSN?action=edit&redlink=1"><span
lang="en-ca"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Courier New"
size="2">MSN</font></u></span><span lang="en-ca"></span></a><span
lang="en-ca"><font face="Courier New" size="2">, 6/97 – Prefix
trick</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"></span><span lang="en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">Also perused:<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-ca"></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=556.25;wap2"><span
lang="en-ca"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=556.25;wap2</font></u></span><span
lang="en-ca"></span></a><span lang="en-ca"><br>
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069"><span
lang="en-ca"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069</font></u></span><span
lang="en-ca"></span></a><span lang="en-ca"></span><span
lang="en-ca"><br>
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042"><span
lang="en-ca"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Calibri">http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042</font></u></span><span
lang="en-ca"></span></a><span lang="en-ca"><font
face="Calibri"> </font></span><span lang="en-ca"> </span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-ca"><font face="Calibri">- Qov</font></span><span
lang="en-ca"></span></p>
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