[98722] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Objects with -moH
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv)
Mon Jun 2 07:18:03 2014
From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
X-Google-Original-From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv <lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <002d01cf7e2e$b54495c0$1fcdc140$@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 07:17:40 -0400
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I'm sure I won't be the only person to suggest that the latter example given=
of {ghojmoH} is similar to examples using {nob} with the "prefix shortcut" f=
or verbs many have called "ditransitive" referring to an indirect object tre=
ated as a direct object in order to slightly truncate the sentence.=20
Here the implied, truncated translation is "The mother teaches him grammar."=
And since you are not teaching the use of {-vaD}, you can't use {SoHvaD}.
Likely, it's good to dodge the topic for beginners and bring this up later, a=
t the end of a lesson that DOES teach {-vaD}. It is good to point out that w=
hile "teach" is a good translation for {ghojmoH}, that doesn't make it gramm=
atically different from {ghoj} + {-moH}. Having a separate listing in the En=
glish->Klingon side of the dictionary does not imply a separate Klingon root=
verb.=20
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 2, 2014, at 2:48 AM, "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
>=20
> Below is an excerpt from the online course lesson where I introduce =E2=80=
=93moH. My aim is to keep my own opinions out of the course, and to teach th=
e student only what we KNOW, for the most part avoiding the unknown entirely=
. It=E2=80=99s not really fair to introduce =E2=80=93moH and not mention any=
thing about using it with indirect objects. Canon and some previous discussi=
ons are referenced at the bottom. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here=
.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m not looking for more opinions or theories or justifications on=
how =E2=80=93moH should work. The existence of civil disagreement among com=
petent Klingonists is enough for me not to declare for one idea or the other=
. The suffix =E2=80=93vaD is not included in the level one grammar, so there=
=E2=80=99s no reason to go there. I=E2=80=99m just checking that I haven=E2=80=
=99t missed some canon that resolves this, and for opinions-expert or beginn=
er=E2=80=94on the level of information included. Is there more beginners sho=
uld know? Should I be more terse and simply say that canon is ambiguous on t=
he object of this type of verb?
> ---
> Things can get more complicated when =E2=80=93moH is used on a verb that c=
ould already take an object. This is an area where we don't have all the ans=
wers. For example, the word <ghojmoH> is formed from <ghoj> =E2=80=9Clearn=E2=
=80=9D plus =E2=80=93moH, and means =E2=80=9Ccause to learn=E2=80=9D, normal=
ly translated as =E2=80=9Cteach, instruct.=E2=80=9D It even has its own list=
ing in TKD as such. But what is the object of ghojmoH?=20
>=20
> Is it the student? That would seem to make sense.=20
> ghoj puq. =E2=80=93 The child learns.
> ?puq ghojmoH SoS. =E2=80=93 The mother causes the child to learn./The moth=
er teaches the child.
> We have evidence that this is the correct form, as in Power Klingon we hea=
r the form <qaghojmoH> I instruct you.
>=20
> Confusingly, we also have text written by Marc Okrand on a licenced tradin=
g card, which suggests that the object doesn't necessarily change when =E2=80=
=93moH is added to a verb. The object of ghojmoH may be the same as the obj=
ect of ghoj: the thing learned.
>=20
> pab ghoj puq. =E2=80=93 The child learns grammar.
> ?pab ghojmoH SoS. =E2=80=93 The mother teaches grammar.
>=20
> Maybe it can be either. We have other tools for indicating the second obje=
ct of the verb, but they, and a full discussion of this question, are beyond=
the scope of this course. The purpose of this digression is to explain why t=
his course doesn't include instructions on using such objects, and to give y=
ou some insight into how we know things about the Klingon language.
>=20
> Reference:
>=20
> TKD 4.2.4 p.38 Type 4: Cause
>=20
> Skybox card S20 - ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.
>=20
> Power Klingon - batlh qaghojmoH
> Okrand MSN, 6/97 =E2=80=93 Prefix trick
>=20
>=20
> Also perused:
> http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=3D556.25;wap2
> http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069
> http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042=20
>=20
> - Qov
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I'm sure I won't be the only person to=
suggest that the latter example given of {ghojmoH} is similar to examples u=
sing {nob} with the "prefix shortcut" for verbs many have called "ditransiti=
ve" referring to an indirect object treated as a direct object in order to s=
lightly truncate the sentence. </div><div><br></div><div>Here the impli=
ed, truncated translation is "The mother teaches him grammar." And since you=
are not teaching the use of {-vaD}, you can't use {SoHvaD}.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Likely, it's good to dodge the topic for beginners and bring this u=
p later, at the end of a lesson that DOES teach {-vaD}. It is good to point o=
ut that while "teach" is a good translation for {ghojmoH}, that doesn't make=
it grammatically different from {ghoj} + {-moH}. Having a separate listing i=
n the English->Klingon side of the dictionary does not imply a separate K=
lingon root verb. <br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 2, 201=
4, at 2:48 AM, "Robyn Stewart" <<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">r=
obyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii">=
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"MS Exchange Server version 14.02.5004.00=
0">
<title>Objects with -moH</title>
<!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">Below is an excer=
pt from the</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">online=
course lesson where I introduce =E2=80=93moH.</font></span><span lang=3D"en=
-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> My aim is to keep my own opinions out of the co=
urse, and to teach the student</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=
=3D"Calibri">only what we KNOW, for the most part avoiding the unknown entir=
ely. It=E2=80=99s not really fair to introduce =E2=80=93moH</font></span><sp=
an lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">and</font></span><span lang=3D"en-=
ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">not mention anything about using it with indirec=
t objects.</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">Canon</=
font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> and some previous d=
iscussions are referenced at the bottom.</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><=
font face=3D"Calibri"> I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here.</font></s=
pan><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">I=E2=80=99m not looking for more o</font></span><span=
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">pinions or theories or justifications=
on how =E2=80=93moH should work. The existence of civil disagreement among c=
ompetent Klingonists is enough for me not to declare for o</font></span><spa=
n lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">ne idea or the other. The suffix =E2=
=80=93vaD is not included in the level one grammar, so there=E2=80=99s no re=
ason to go there. I=E2=80=99m just checking that I haven=E2=80=99t missed so=
me canon that resolves this</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"=
Calibri">, and for opinions-expert or beginner=E2=80=94on the leve</font></s=
pan><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">l of information</font></spa=
n><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">included. Is there more begin=
ners should know?</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">=
Should I be more terse and simply say that canon is ambiguous on the object o=
f this type of</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">ver=
b?</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">---</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><br>
<font face=3D"Calibri">Things can get more complicated when =E2=80=93moH is u=
sed on a verb that could already take an object. This is an area where we do=
n't have all the answers. For example</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><fon=
t face=3D"Calibri">, the word <</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font f=
ace=3D"Calibri">ghojmoH</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Cali=
bri">></font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> is forme=
d from</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri"><</font>=
</span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">ghoj</font></span><span l=
ang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">></font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca">=
<font face=3D"Calibri"></font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Cal=
ibri">=E2=80=9C</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">lea=
rn</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">=E2=80=9D</font>=
</span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> plus =E2=80=93moH, and m=
eans</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">=E2=80=9C</fo=
nt></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">cause to learn</font><=
/span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">=E2=80=9D</font></span><sp=
an lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">, normally translated as</font></sp=
an><span lang=3D"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">=E2=80=9C</font></span><span=
lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">teach, instruct.</font></span><span l=
ang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">=E2=80=9D</font></span><span lang=3D"en=
-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> It even has its own listing in TKD as such. But=
what is the object of ghojmoH? </font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">Is it the student=
? That would seem to make sense. <br>
ghoj puq. =E2=80=93 The child learns.<br>
?puq ghojmoH SoS. =E2=80=93 The mother causes the child to learn./The mother=
teaches the child.<br>
We have evidence that this is the correct form, as in Power Klingon</font></=
span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"></font></span><span lang=3D=
"en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri">we hear the form</font></span><span lang=3D"=
en-ca"> <font face=3D"Calibri"><</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font f=
ace=3D"Calibri">qaghojmoH</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Ca=
libri">></font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> I inst=
ruct you.<br>
<br>
Confusingly, we also have text written by Marc Okrand on a licenced trading c=
ard, which suggests that the object doesn't necessarily change when =E2=80=93=
moH is added to a verb. The object of ghojmoH may be the same as the o=
bject of ghoj: the thing learned.<br>
<br>
pab ghoj puq. =E2=80=93 The child learns grammar.<br>
?pab ghojmoH SoS. =E2=80=93 The mother teaches grammar.</font></span><span l=
ang=3D"en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">Maybe it can be e=
ither. We have other tools for indicating the second object of the verb, but=
they, and a full discussion of this question, are beyond the scope of this c=
ourse. The purpose of this digression is to explain why this course doesn't i=
nclude instructions on using such objects, and to give you some insight into=
how we know things about the Klingon language.</font></span><span lang=3D"e=
n-ca"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">Reference:</font>=
</span><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font size=3D=
"2" face=3D"Courier New">TKD 4.2.4 p.38 Type 4: Cause<br>
</font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New">Sk=
ybox card S20 - ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.</font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New">Po=
wer Klingon - batlh qaghojmoH<br>
Okrand</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"> </span><a href=3D"http://mughom.wi=
kia.com/wiki/MSN?action=3Dedit&redlink=3D1"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><u><fon=
t color=3D"#0000FF" size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New">MSN</font></u></span><sp=
an lang=3D"en-ca"></span></a><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"C=
ourier New">, 6/97 =E2=80=93 Prefix trick</font></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">Also perused:<br>=
</font></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span><a href=3D"http://www.klingon.org/=
smboard/index.php?topic=3D556.25;wap2"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><u><font color=3D=
"#0000FF" face=3D"Calibri">http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=3D=
556.25;wap2</font></u></span><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span></a><span lang=3D"e=
n-ca"><br>
</span><a href=3D"http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069"><spa=
n lang=3D"en-ca"><u><font color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Calibri">http://diswww.m=
it.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069</font></u></span><span lang=3D"en-ca">=
</span></a><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"></font></span><span l=
ang=3D"en-ca"><br>
</span><a href=3D"http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042"><spa=
n lang=3D"en-ca"><u><font color=3D"#0000FF" face=3D"Calibri">http://diswww.m=
it.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042</font></u></span><span lang=3D"en-ca">=
</span></a><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri"> </font></span><=
span lang=3D"en-ca"> </span></p>
<p dir=3D"LTR"><span lang=3D"en-ca"><font face=3D"Calibri">- Qov</font></spa=
n><span lang=3D"en-ca"></span></p>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span>=
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>http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></span><br></div></blo=
ckquote></body></html>=
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