[98400] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Translating the past
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bellerophon, modeler)
Sun Apr 13 00:21:42 2014
In-Reply-To: <5349FD15.6090405@trimboli.name>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:21:21 -0400
From: "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 10:57 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 4/12/2014 10:43 PM, Bellerophon, modeler wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 6:23 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name
>> <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Klingon -pu' and -ta' have examples showing both PERFECTIVE and
>> PERFECT aspects. They can mean either of these things. TKD calls it
>> "perfective," but the definition is not strictly correct. What most
>> people believe, incorrectly as I see it, is that these suffixes
>> indicate what is correctly called perfect aspect.
>>
>>
>> Could one not say {wa'leS ghaH HoHlu'pu'}, indicating that by
>> tomorrow he will have gotten himself killed? This sentence uses
>> perfective but not in any past sense, Klingon cultural attitudes toward
>> counting one's chickens notwithstanding. If grammar allows such a
>> construction, it would divorce -pu' and -ta' from any connection with
>> the past, except insofar as the past is more somewhat more certain than
>> the future.
>>
>
> It could certainly be used for that. -pu' and -ta' are not connected to
> the PAST, they are connected to TENSE, in that their perfect usage tells us
> that an event occurs prior to the time context. In your sentence the time
> context is "tomorrow," and the killing takes place prior to tomorrow.
> That's tense, even if it's not PAST tense. It's future perfect tense.
>
> I can't think of a way that this would make sense with a perfective
> aspect, since as of today tomorrow's killing is not completed as a whole
> unit.
TKD states that -pu' and -ta' denote aspect, which I presume means that if
they happen to indicate tense as well, it is due to context. Since having
begun to distinguish between tense and aspect (thanks to MO), I have always
thought these endings do not locate an action in time, but only indicate
its completion--ordinarily in the past, though one expects some actions to
be completed in the future: hence the future perfect tense in English. It
seems that the aspect of an action completed in the setting spoken of in
the sentence is perfective, irrespective of the time in which the sentence
is spoken. But perhaps I am confusing the concept of perfective aspect with
relative tense.
How about a case where subjunctive mood might be called for? {Sop jabta'pa'
vutwI', laHDaj wInoHlaHbe'}
~'eD
--
My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
at, Apr 12, 2014 at 10:57 PM, SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailt=
o:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></spa=
n> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 4/12/2014 10:43 PM, Bellerophon, modeler =
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 6:23 PM, SuStel <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimbo=
li.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a><br>
<mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel=
@trimboli.name</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Klingon -pu' and -ta' have examples showing both PERF=
ECTIVE and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 PERFECT aspects. They can mean either of these things. TKD ca=
lls it<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "perfective," but the definition is not strictly co=
rrect. What most<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 people believe, incorrectly as I see it, is that these suffix=
es<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 indicate what is correctly called perfect aspect.<br>
<br>
<br>
Could one not say {wa'leS ghaH HoHlu'pu'}, indicating that by<b=
r>
tomorrow he will have gotten himself killed? This sentence uses<br>
perfective but not in any past sense, Klingon cultural attitudes toward<br>
counting one's chickens notwithstanding. If grammar allows such a<br>
construction, it would divorce -pu' and -ta' from any connection wi=
th<br>
the past, except insofar as the past is more somewhat more certain than<br>
the future.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
It could certainly be used for that. -pu' and -ta' are not connecte=
d to the PAST, they are connected to TENSE, in that their perfect usage tel=
ls us that an event occurs prior to the time context. In your sentence the =
time context is "tomorrow," and the killing takes place prior to =
tomorrow. That's tense, even if it's not PAST tense. It's futur=
e perfect tense.<br>
<br>
I can't think of a way that this would make sense with a perfective asp=
ect, since as of today tomorrow's killing is not completed as a whole u=
nit.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>TKD states that -pu' and -ta' =
denote aspect, which I presume means that if they happen to indicate tense =
as well, it is due to context. Since having begun to distinguish between te=
nse and aspect (thanks to MO), I have always thought these endings do not l=
ocate an action in time, but only indicate its completion--ordinarily in th=
e past, though one expects some actions to be completed in the future: henc=
e the future perfect tense in English. It seems that the aspect of an actio=
n completed in the setting spoken of in the sentence is perfective, irrespe=
ctive of the time in which the sentence is spoken.=C2=A0But perhaps I am co=
nfusing the concept of perfective aspect with relative tense.</div>
<div><br></div><div>How about a case where subjunctive mood might be called=
for? {Sop jabta'pa' vutwI', laHDaj wInoHlaHbe'}</div><div>=
<br></div><div>~'eD</div><div><br></div></div>-- <br>My modeling blog:=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://be=
llerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon-model=
er.blogspot.com/</a><br>
My other modeling blog:=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://bellerophon.blog.com/" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com/</a><br>
</div></div>
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