[98385] in tlhIngan-Hol
[Tlhingan-hol] Translating the past
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Sat Apr 12 02:22:37 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 23:21:47 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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One of the principles I'm working with on the KLPC course is to teach what
is known, so that all competent Klingonists will be able to agree with what
is taught. In skirting the perfective controversy that raged last year, I
started to write a little piece on how the aspectless verbs could be used,
trying to use TKD and canon to support an aspectless <muQID be'nI'wI'> from
a boy explaining a leg wound. As I looked through canon, what I was writing
got out of hand for the course, and isn't polished, but I wanted to share
it.
I said:
Klingon does not have a marker for past tense any more than it has a future
one. It has some Type-7 suffixes (not in this syllabus), to indicate
completed and ongoing actions. These are relevant today because Okrand
instructs us that "verbs with no type-7 suffix are translated by the English
simple present tense." He goes on to allow such verbs to be translated in
the future tense where context is appropriate, but does not explicitly say
that they may also be translated in the past tense. Many Klingonists believe
that a verb with no type-7 can be translated as past present or future,
depending on context.
Okrand himself usually uses perfective on actions in the past, and
translates them with English present perfect (e.g. vImoqpu' - I have beaten
it). His use is consistent enough and
There are a few canon examples of Marc translating English past tense with
no type-7 suffix (or vice versa--but I believe he usually starts with the
English).
Hoch nuH Daqel'a' = did you consider every weapon? KGT p. 107
naH jajmeywIj betleH vIyanbe' = In my veg. days I did not wield a bat'leth.
KGT p. 107
Here's an interesting one where I would have expected -pu' but English
present perfect is translated with no aspect:
narghbe'chugh SuvwI' qa' taH may'. = If a warrior's spirit has not escaped,
the battle is still going on. TKW p.147
Here's one with English past tense translated as Klingon perfective.
tera' vatlh DISpoH cha'maH loS bong QongmeH qItI'nga' Duj tI'ang ghompu'
DIvI' 'ejDo' 'entepray'.
A sleeper ship of this class, the T'Ong, was encountered in the 24th century
by the U.S.S. Enterprise.TM
The relevant part of that sentence is ghompu' = encountered, but I didn't
want to be accused of obfuscating by excerpting.
I would say, "I don't want to resurrect an old argument," but quite frankly
I want to resurrect anything that could result in us speaking better
Klingon. I've been a huge advocate for a sentence with no aspect
translatable as simple present, past or future, but canon isn't supporting
it. Marc has very consistently not used it that way.
It isn't bizarre that so many people would misuse it for so long. Look at
Lieven, who speaks English better than any of us speak Klingon, yet-along
with the typical German learner of English-hasn't got that past tense thing
quite right, often using present perfect where a native speaker would use
the simple past. It's easy to bring patterns from one language into another
or overgeneralize.
And I'm about to go on shift, so I'll walk out of this newsgroup and come
back in a few days to see if others have found canon and justification I
can't. The loudest advocate for greater use of aspect suffixes on past
actions, not just past perfect, has alienated people, but the idea can be
valid even if you don't like how it's often delivered. As a BG who taught
that jIlegh means "I see/I saw/I will see" I have some responsibility to
undo this if it's a mistake. I know I didn't make it up, and I expect the BG
who taught me to be fast into the fray, but is there really enough
justification in "no past tense" to use the aspectless verb in a way Marc
almost never does?
- Qov
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<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">On</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">e of =
the principles I</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">m working with on the KLPC course is to teach</FONT> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">what is</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> known, so that all =
competent Kl</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">i</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">ngonists</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> will =
be able to agree with what is taught.</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">In skirting the perfective controversy =
tha</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">t raged last =
year, I started to write a little piece on</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">how</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> the aspectless verbs</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">could be used</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">, trying to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> use TKD and canon to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> support</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">an aspectless</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"><</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">muQID be</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">nI</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">wI</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">> =
from a boy explaining a leg wound</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">As I looked through canon</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">, what I was writing got out of =
hand</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> for the =
course</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">and isn</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">t =
polished,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">but I wanted to share =
it.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
</SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
</SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">I said:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
</SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">Klingon does not have a marker for past tense any more =
than it has a future one. It has some Type-7 suffixes (not in this =
syllabus), to indicate completed and ongoing actions. These are relevant =
today because Okrand instructs us that "verbs with no =
type-7</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"></FONT> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">suffix are translated =
by the English simple present tense." He goes on to allow such =
verbs to be translated in the future tense where context is appropriate, =
but does not explicitly say that they may also be translated in the past =
tense. Many Klingonists</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">b</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">elieve that a verb with no type-7 can be translated as =
past present or future, depending on context.<BR>
<BR>
Okrand himself usually uses perfective on actions in the past, and =
translates them with English present perfect (e.g. vImoqpu'</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">–</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> I have beaten =
it).</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">His use is</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> consistent enough</FONT> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">Ther</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">e are a few canon examples of Marc translating English =
past tense with no type-7 suffix (or vice versa--but I believe he =
usually starts with the English).</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">Hoch nuH Daqel'a' =3D did you consider every weapon? =
KGT p. 107<BR>
naH jajmeywIj betleH vIyanbe' =3D In my v</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">eg. days I did not wield a bat'leth. KGT p. =
107</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">Here</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">s</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">an interesting one where I would have expected</FONT> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">–</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">pu</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> but</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">English</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">present perfect is =
translated</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> with =
no as</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">p</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">ect</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
</SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">narghbe'chugh SuvwI' qa' taH may'. =3D If a warrior's =
spirit has not escaped, the battle is still going on. TKW =
p.147</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> </SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">Here</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">s</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">one with</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">English</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">past tense translated</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">as Klingon perfective.<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><B><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">tera’ =
vatlh DISpoH cha’maH loS bong QongmeH qItI’nga’ Duj =
tI’ang ghompu’ DIvI’ ’ejDo’ =
’entepray’.<BR>
</FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">A sleeper =
ship of this class, the T’Ong, was encountered in the 24th century =
by the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><I> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">U.S.S. Enterprise</FONT></I></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><SUP><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">TM</FONT></SUP></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">The relevant part of that sentence is =
ghompu'</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><SUP><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana"></FONT></SUP></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">=3D encountered, but I =
didn't want to be accused of obfuscating by =
excerpting.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">I would =
say,</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">“</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">I don</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">t want to resurrect an</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">old argument,</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">”</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana"> but quite frankly I want to resurrect any</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">t</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">hing</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> that could result in us speaking better =
Klin</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">gon. =
I</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">ve been a huge advocate for a sentence</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">with no aspect translatable =
as simple pr</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">esent, past</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">or future, but</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">can</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">on isn</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">t supporting it. Marc has very consistently not used it =
that way.<BR>
<BR>
It isn</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">t bizarre that so many people would misuse it for so =
l</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">ong. =
Look at Lieven, who speaks English</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">better than any of us speak Kl</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">i</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">ngon,</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">yet</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">—</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">along</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">with</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> the typical Ge</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">rman learner of =
English</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">—</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">hasn</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">t got that</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">past</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">tense thing quite =
right, o</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">ften =
using present perfect wh</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">ere a native speaker would use the simple =
past.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">It</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">s easy to bring patterns =
from one language into another or overgeneralize.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">And I</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">m about to go on shift, so I</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">ll walk out of =
thi</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">s newsgroup =
and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">come back in a few =
days to see if others have found canon and justification I =
can</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">t.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"></FONT> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">The loudest advocate =
for greater use of aspect suffixes on past actions, not just past =
perfect, has alienated people, but the i</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">dea can be valid even if you =
don</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">t like how it</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">s of</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">t</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">en delivered.</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana"></FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">As a BG who taught that jIlegh means</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">“</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">I see</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">/I saw/I will see</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">”</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana"> I have some responsibility to undo this if =
it</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">s a mistake. I know I didn</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">’</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">t make it =
up,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">and</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">I expect</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">the BG who taught me</FONT> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">to</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> be fast</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">i</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">nto</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">the fray,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">but is there really enough justification =
in</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">“</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">no past tense</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">”</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana"> to use the aspectless verb =
in a way Mar</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Verdana">c =
almost never does?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Verdana">- Qov</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
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