[98114] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] before now
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Fiat Knox)
Mon Mar 3 06:02:39 2014
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:02:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: Fiat Knox <fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk>
To: De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>,
Klingon Mailing List <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>,
Alex Greene <fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <CA+7zAmM_EcHqsycjrH+aK0u6pzpJD79xK+XreTDXQieBEXg+9w@mail.gmail.com>
Reply-To: Fiat Knox <fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Hence my other choice of qaSpa' poHvambefore this time had occurred ...=0A=
=0Awejnot yetinfers that the moment of transition has not occurred yet, but=
the before nowconstruction indicates that the moment of transition is in t=
he past: it has already happened. wej not yet could be used, but I'd recomm=
end that you use the perfective suffix -pu' on =0Athe verb describing actio=
n that you had not yet done, so as to indicate the point of transition havi=
ng been in the past, and not still to come in the future.=0A=0AqaSpu' poHva=
m not tera'ngan vISuvBeforethis moment, I had never fought a Terran.=0Awej =
tera'ngan vISuvpu'I had not yet fought a Terran. You could also say I had y=
et to fight a Terran.=0A=0AThe wej not yetconstruction also infers that the=
event had been on the cards all along - the person was aware that he was g=
oing to write that manuscript, or fight a Terran. notnevertends to lean tow=
ards a more stochastic approach - there had been no plans to write manuscri=
pts or fight Terrans: but hey, stuff happens.=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Monday, 3 March=
2014, 8:42, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:=0A =0ADe'vID:=0A>> How=
would you express "before now"? "I haven't done this (e.g., written a=0A>>=
manuscript) before now."=0A>> {ret not ghItlh vIqon}? Can {ret} be used by=
itself as a time stamp, and can=0A>> it precede an adverbial {not}?=0A>=0A=
>Fiat Knox:=0A>> Would {qaSpa' DaH} or {qaSpa' poHvam} work for you?=0A>> {=
qaSpa' DaHjaj not tera'ngan vISuv} "Before today, I had never fought a=0A>>=
Terran."=0A>> {qaSpa' poHvam DuH Dochvetlh 'e' not vIqel} "Before now, I h=
ad never=0A>> considered that that was possible."=0A>> {qaSpa' DaH not legh=
lu'} "It had never been seen before now."=0A>=0A>Is {DaH} a thing that can =
{qaS}? My intuition says that the subject of=0A>{qaS} is an event, or at le=
ast something that has a well-defined=0A>beginning, middle, and end in time=
. But I have no evidence either way=0A>whether {DaH} can be the subject of =
{qaS} or not.=0A>=0A>=0A>-- =0A>De'vID=0A>=0A>=0A>
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ga=
ramond, new york, times, serif;font-size:18pt"><span>Hence my other choice =
of <span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">qaSpa' </span></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight: bold;">poHvam</span><span> <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">=
before this time </span><span style=3D"font-style: italic;">had occurred</s=
pan> ...</span><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"><br><br>wej</span><span> =
<span style=3D"font-style: italic;">not yet</span><span> infers</span> that=
the moment of transition has not occurred yet, but the <span style=3D"font=
-style: italic;">before now</span><span> construction</span></span> indicat=
es that the moment of transition is in the past: it has already happened. <=
span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">wej</span> <span style=3D"font-style: ita=
lic;">not yet</span>=0A could be used, but I'd recommend that you use the p=
erfective suffix <span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">-pu'</span> on =0Athe v=
erb describing action that you had not yet done, so as to indicate the poin=
t of transition having been in the past, and not still to come in the futur=
e.<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 24px; font-family: garamond=
,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: italic;">=
<br><span><span><span><span><span><span><span></span></span></span></span><=
/span></span></span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 24p=
x; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparen=
t; font-style: normal;"><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><span sty=
le=3D"font-weight: bold;">qaSpu' poHvam not tera'ngan vISuv</span></span></=
span></span></span><span> <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">Before</span>=
</span><span style=3D"font-style: italic;"> this moment, I had never fought=
a Terran</span><span>.</span></span></span></span></div><div style=3D"colo=
r: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 24px; font-family: garamond,new
york,times,serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><spa=
n><span><span><span><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">wej tera'ngan vISuvp=
u'</span><span> <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">I had not yet fought a =
Terran</span><span>. You could also say <span style=3D"font-style: italic;"=
>I had yet to fight a Terran</span><span>.</span><br></span></span></span><=
/span></span></span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 24p=
x; font-family: garamond,new york,times,serif; background-color: transparen=
t; font-style: normal;"><br></div>The <span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">we=
j</span> <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">not yet</span><span> construct=
ion also infers that the event had been on the cards all along - the person=
was aware that he was going to write that manuscript, or fight a Terran. <=
span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">not</span><span> <span style=3D"font-styl=
e: italic;">never</span><span> tends to lean towards a more stochastic appr=
oach -
there had been no plans to write manuscripts or fight Terrans: but hey, st=
uff happens.</span></span></span><div style=3D"display: block;" class=3D"ya=
hoo_quoted"> <br> <br> <div style=3D"font-family: garamond, new york, times=
, serif; font-size: 18pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helve=
tica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12pt;"> =
<div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> On Monday, 3 March 2014,=
8:42, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <bl=
ockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px=
; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div class=3D"y_msg_container">De'=
vID:<br clear=3D"none">> How would you express "before now"? "I haven't =
done this (e.g., written a<br clear=3D"none">> manuscript) before now."<=
br clear=3D"none">> {ret not ghItlh vIqon}? Can {ret} be used by itself =
as a time stamp, and can<br clear=3D"none">> it precede an adverbial {no=
t}?<br
clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Fiat Knox:<br clear=3D"none">> Would =
{qaSpa' DaH} or {qaSpa' poHvam} work for you?<br clear=3D"none">> {qaSpa=
' DaHjaj not tera'ngan vISuv} "Before today, I had never fought a<br clear=
=3D"none">> Terran."<br clear=3D"none">> {qaSpa' poHvam DuH Dochvetlh=
'e' not vIqel} "Before now, I had never<br clear=3D"none">> considered =
that that was possible."<br clear=3D"none">> {qaSpa' DaH not leghlu'} "I=
t had never been seen before now."<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Is =
{DaH} a thing that can {qaS}? My intuition says that the subject of<br clea=
r=3D"none">{qaS} is an event, or at least something that has a well-defined=
<br clear=3D"none">beginning, middle, and end in time. But I have no eviden=
ce either way<br clear=3D"none">whether {DaH} can be the subject of {qaS} o=
r not.<div class=3D"yqt5569902691" id=3D"yqtfd55482"><br clear=3D"none"><br=
clear=3D"none">-- <br clear=3D"none">De'vID<br clear=3D"none"></div><br><b=
r></div> </blockquote> </div>
</div> </div> </div></body></html>
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