[98101] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] before now
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Sat Mar 1 16:19:00 2014
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 16:18:32 -0500
To: KLI <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <E1WJll0-0000NY-Vb@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Interesting issue. I=E2=80=99d personally think that starting a sentence =
with {ret not} seems like using two different time stamps. It=E2=80=99s =
confusing.
I=E2=80=99d just say:
not ghItlh vIqonpu=E2=80=99.
At no time have I been in the state of having completed the process of =
writing a manuscript. One could interpret this as a statement about the =
foreseeable future as well, since =E2=80=9Cnever=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t =
limited to the past.
or
DaH ghItlh vIqonpu=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99.
I am not at the time of speaking in the state of having completed =
writing a manuscript. Since the time stamp is =E2=80=9Cnow=E2=80=9D, the =
perfective covers any past events.
It=E2=80=99s less clear to try to use {ret} as a time stamp here:
ret ghItlh vIqonbe=E2=80=99.
That just says that at some time before now, I didn=E2=80=99t write a =
manuscript. It doesn=E2=80=99t say anything about all those other time =
periods before now.
{ret} is more useful for positive statements, like:
ret ghItlh vIqonpu=E2=80=99.
This lets you know that I wrote a manuscript and finished it at some =
unspecified time in the past. I=E2=80=99m not talking about a manuscript =
I just finished today. I=E2=80=99m not talking about a manuscript I =
haven=E2=80=99t finished yet, but intend to finish real soon now, like:
wa=E2=80=99leS ghItlh vIqonpu=E2=80=99.
I will have finished the manuscript tomorrow.
The time stamp indicates a point on the time line, and the perfective =
points an arrow toward the past from that point. The event of the verb =
occurs in that direction relative to the point on the time line.
{not} is the time equivalent of the math concept =E2=80=9Cnull=E2=80=9D. =
There is no point on the timeline that {not} indicates. It indicates =
that there isn=E2=80=99t a point on the timeline when the statement is =
true or when the command should be executed. {ret} vaguely specifies =
some point in time before {DaH}, and {DaH} points to the spot on the =
time line when it is uttered.
{ret not} is like saying that there is a point on the time line before =
now, but there is no point on the time line at all. I wouldn=E2=80=99t =
know how to interpret it.
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
On Mar 1, 2014, at 10:22 AM, David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name> wrote:
> wej vIta'pu'.
> wej ghItlh vIqonpu'
> From: De'vID
> Sent: =E2=80=8E3/=E2=80=8E1/=E2=80=8E2014 6:29 AM
> To: KLI
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] before now
>=20
> How would you express "before now"? "I haven't done this (e.g., =
written a manuscript) before now."
>=20
> {ret not ghItlh vIqon}? Can {ret} be used by itself as a time stamp, =
and can it precede an adverbial {not}?
>=20
> --=20
> De'vID
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div>Interesting issue. I=E2=80=99d personally think =
that starting a sentence with {ret not} seems like using two different =
time stamps. It=E2=80=99s confusing.</div><div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99d =
just say:</div><div><br></div><div>not ghItlh =
vIqonpu=E2=80=99.</div><div><br></div><div>At no time have I been in the =
state of having completed the process of writing a manuscript. One could =
interpret this as a statement about the foreseeable future as well, =
since =E2=80=9Cnever=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t limited to the =
past.</div><div><br></div><div>or</div><div><br></div><div>DaH ghItlh =
vIqonpu=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99.</div><div><br></div><div>I am not at the =
time of speaking in the state of having completed writing a manuscript. =
Since the time stamp is =E2=80=9Cnow=E2=80=9D, the perfective covers any =
past events.</div><div><br></div><div>It=E2=80=99s less clear to try to =
use {ret} as a time stamp here:</div><div><br></div><div>ret ghItlh =
vIqonbe=E2=80=99.</div><div><br></div><div>That just says that at some =
time before now, I didn=E2=80=99t write a manuscript. It doesn=E2=80=99t =
say anything about all those other time periods before =
now.</div><div><br></div><div>{ret} is more useful for positive =
statements, like:</div><div><br></div><div>ret ghItlh =
vIqonpu=E2=80=99.</div><div><br></div><div>This lets you know that I =
wrote a manuscript and finished it at some unspecified time in the past. =
I=E2=80=99m not talking about a manuscript I just finished today. I=E2=80=99=
m not talking about a manuscript I haven=E2=80=99t finished yet, but =
intend to finish real soon now, like:</div><div><br></div><div>wa=E2=80=99=
leS ghItlh vIqonpu=E2=80=99.</div><div><br></div><div>I will have =
finished the manuscript tomorrow.</div><div><br></div><div>The time =
stamp indicates a point on the time line, and the perfective points an =
arrow toward the past from that point. The event of the verb occurs in =
that direction relative to the point on the time =
line.</div><div><br></div><div>{not} is the time equivalent of the math =
concept =E2=80=9Cnull=E2=80=9D. There is no point on the timeline that =
{not} indicates. It indicates that there isn=E2=80=99t a point on the =
timeline when the statement is true or when the command should be =
executed. {ret} vaguely specifies some point in time before {DaH}, and =
{DaH} points to the spot on the time line when it is =
uttered.</div><div><br></div><div>{ret not} is like saying that there is =
a point on the time line before now, but there is no point on the time =
line at all. I wouldn=E2=80=99t know how to interpret =
it.</div><div><br></div><div>
<div><div>lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh</div><div>Door =
Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</div></div><div><br></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Mar 1, 2014, at 10:22 AM, David Trimboli <<a =
href=3D"mailto:david@trimboli.name">david@trimboli.name</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">wej =
vIta'pu'.<br>wej ghItlh vIqonpu'</div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<hr>
<span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; =
FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From: </span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; =
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com">De'vID</a></span><br><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">Sent: </span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Calibri,sans-serif">=E2=80=8E3/=E2=80=8E1/=E2=80=8E2014 6:29 =
AM</span><br><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Calibri,sans-serif; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To: </span><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif"><a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">KLI</a></span><br><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">Subject: </span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Calibri,sans-serif">[Tlhingan-hol] before now</span><br><br></div><p =
dir=3D"ltr">How would you express "before now"? "I haven't done this =
(e.g., written a manuscript) before now."</p><p dir=3D"ltr">{ret not =
ghItlh vIqon}? Can {ret} be used by itself as a time stamp, and can it =
precede an adverbial {not}?</p><p dir=3D"ltr">-- =
<br>De'vID</p></div>_______________________________________________<br>Tlh=
ingan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>http://ma=
il.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br></blockquote></div><br></body>=
</html>=
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