[97853] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon Word of the Day: Say'qu'moH
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rohan Fenwick)
Wed Jan 15 06:30:54 2014
From: Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:30:37 +1000
In-Reply-To: <4587D8C1-BEE3-4FBC-A198-E3808240E91A@kth.se>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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ghItlhpu' loghaD=2C jatlh:
> That being said=2C it's worth noting that we don't know for how long
> the current suffix order has been in place=3B there was a time when
> {ghIj qet jaghmeyjaj} was a valid sentence.
Well. It could also be argued that that is from a non-standard Klingon dial=
ect=2C too =3B) Unfortunately=2C the scant evidence from the paq'batlh cont=
ains only three instances of no' Hol where multiple suffixes appear=2C and =
two of those include rovers and so aren't of much help. The only one that i=
s not is /tyemtoq'g'oty/ {chImtaHghach} "emptiness"=2C which obeys modern s=
uffix constraints (V-7-9).
Staying in no' Hol=2C though=2C I wonder if another possibility might be th=
at {lo'laH} arose out of OSV word-ordering? If we reconstruct a no' Hol sen=
tence such as the following:
*bosru 'qin 'elutloq'
"the god is able to use the metal"
the version with no overt subject noun becomes:
*bosru 'elutloq'
"he=2C she=2C it is able to use the metal"
Let's assume for the sake of argument that it was at this stage that the as=
sociation was established where "able to use" =3D> "value". Then it could b=
e that=2C once the pronominal prefix */'e-/ was lost=2C the reanalysis of l=
ate no' Hol */bosru lutloq'/ from divalent "he=2C she=2C it is able to use =
the metal" (idiomatically=2C =3D "the metal is valuable to him=2C her=2C it=
") to univalent "the metal is valuable" becomes straightforward=2C since by=
the OSV word-order of archaic modern Klingon (note toasts like {'IwlIj jac=
hjaj})=2C /bosru/ could be standing here as either subject or object. What'=
s more=2C verbs used as adjectives also stand after their noun in no' Hol (=
note /q'op srim/ "nearby matter" from the paq'batlh)=2C so the string */bos=
ru lutloq'/ could have appropriated an adjectival use very quickly after be=
coming univalent in the first place.
We have other verbs where something similar may have happened=2C notably {m=
ev} (which can be used with one or two arguments) and {meQ} (which can also=
be used with one or two arguments=2C and also adjectivally). As loghaD poi=
nts out=2C though=2C there are many possibilities!
taH:
> We were discussing a similar example on the Conlangs group on
> Facebook=2C yesterday: The noun "ward" is most commonly used to
> mean "somebody/something to be guarded"=2C but an older use of
> the word also has it as "somebody/something that guards".
Something similar turns up in Klingon {boQ} (v.) "assist" =3D> {boQ} (n.) "=
aide=2C assistant"=2C but also "assistance".
QeS
=
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>ghItlhpu' loghaD=2C jatlh:<br>&g=
t=3B That being said=2C it's worth noting that we don't know for how long<b=
r>>=3B the current suffix order has been in place=3B there was a time whe=
n<br>>=3B {ghIj qet jaghmeyjaj} was a valid sentence.<br><br>Well. It cou=
ld also be argued that that is from a non-standard Klingon dialect=2C too =
=3B) Unfortunately=2C the scant evidence from the paq'batlh contains only t=
hree instances of no' Hol where multiple suffixes appear=2C and two of thos=
e include rovers and so aren't of much help. The only one that is not is /t=
yemtoq'g'oty/ {chImtaHghach} "emptiness"=2C which obeys modern suffix const=
raints (V-7-9).<br><br>Staying in no' Hol=2C though=2C I wonder if another =
possibility might be that {lo'laH} arose out of OSV word-ordering? If we re=
construct a no' Hol sentence such as the following:<br><br>*bosru 'qin 'elu=
tloq'<br>"the god is able to use the metal"<br><br>the version with no over=
t subject noun becomes:<br><br>*bosru 'elutloq'<br>"he=2C she=2C it is able=
to use the metal"<br><br>Let's assume for the sake of argument that it was=
at this stage that the association was established where "able to use" =3D=
>=3B "value". Then it could be that=2C once the pronominal prefix */'e-/ =
was lost=2C the reanalysis of late no' Hol */bosru lutloq'/ from divalent "=
he=2C she=2C it is able to use the metal" (idiomatically=2C =3D "the metal =
is valuable to him=2C her=2C it") to univalent "the metal is valuable" beco=
mes straightforward=2C since by the OSV word-order of archaic modern Klingo=
n (note toasts like {'IwlIj jachjaj})=2C /bosru/ could be standing here as =
either subject or object. What's more=2C verbs used as adjectives also stan=
d after their noun in no' Hol (note /q'op srim/ "nearby matter" from the pa=
q'batlh)=2C so the string */bosru lutloq'/ could have appropriated an adjec=
tival use very quickly after becoming univalent in the first place.<br><br>=
We have other verbs where something similar may have happened=2C notably {m=
ev} (which can be used with one or two arguments) and {meQ} (which can also=
be used with one or two arguments=2C and also adjectivally). As loghaD poi=
nts out=2C though=2C there are many possibilities!<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B We=
were discussing a similar example on the Conlangs group on<br>>=3B Faceb=
ook=2C yesterday: The noun "ward" is most commonly used to<br>>=3B mean "=
somebody/something to be guarded"=2C but an older use of<br>>=3B the word=
also has it as "somebody/something that guards".<br><br>Something similar =
turns up in Klingon {boQ} (v.) "assist" =3D>=3B {boQ} (n.) "aide=2C assis=
tant"=2C but also "assistance".<br><br><div>QeS<br></div> </div>=
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