[97618] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] the birth of a new word: qorgh
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bellerophon, modeler)
Fri Nov 15 11:14:29 2013
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-W2502E83B1293E07393CEE0AAFB0@phx.gbl>
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:14:07 -0500
From: "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I'm surprised I guessed so close. My imprecise wording was apparently
understood as 1500 *phonetically distinct* monosyllabic words.
But my calculation inadvertently included CVwC and CVyC. There aren't any
of course, except if the final C is /'/. {'enterpray'} is good evidence
that those forms aren't allowed.
Here is the tally of the 2541 possible syllables:
CV: 21*5=105
CVC: 21*5*20=2100 (where the second C isn't /w/)
CVw: 21*3=63
CVrgh: 21*5=105
CVw': 21*3=63 (where V=/a/, /e/, or /I/)
CVy': 21*5=105
Total=2541
So Klingon has only 906 syllables left to make into new monosyllabic words.
This makes me further appreciate the constraints MO works under, as when he
had to rewrite dialogue for STID.
~'eD
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 1:38 AM, Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ghItlhpu' 'eD, jatlh:
> > The beginning of this exchange got me thinking again about how many
> > syllables are possible in Klingon phonology:
> (poD)
> > I'd guess Klingon has around 1500 monosyllabic words, so the ratio of
> > sense to nonsense syllables is getting small, less than 1:3.
>
> I put together a syllable distribution database a while ago, built on the
> presumption that the legal syllable shapes are CV, CVC, CVrgh, CVw' and
> CVy', with no syllables of the form *Cow(') or *Cuw('). On that
> presumption, there are 2,541 possible legal Klingon syllables, and if my
> data are up to date then 1,635 of those possibilities are currently
> attested (64.3%). Of those, 1,461 (89.3%) are monosyllabic words; an
> additional 174 syllable shapes are attested only in polysyllabic words.
> That puts the ratio of sense to nonsense syllables at a little under 3:2.
>
> taH:
> > But one error-checking mechanism of a language is that nonsense
> monosyllables
> > outnumber their intelligible counterparts (though this is probably not
> the
> > case for Hawaiian).
>
> Like most Polynesian languages Hawaiian requires lexical words to be at
> least bimoraic, so to have either at least one long vowel or at least two
> short vowels, but Japanese might be an example where intelligible lexical
> monosyllables might be more numerous than nonsense ones.
>
> QeS
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
--
My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I'm surprised I guessed so close. My=C2=A0imprecise=C2=
=A0wording was apparently understood as 1500 <u>phonetically distinct</u> m=
onosyllabic words.<div><br></div><div>But my calculation inadvertently incl=
uded CVwC and CVyC. There aren't any of course, except if the final C i=
s /'/. {'enterpray'} is good evidence that those forms aren'=
;t allowed.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Here is the tally of the 2541 possible syllables:</div>=
<div>CV: 21*5=3D105</div><div>CVC: 21*5*20=3D2100 (where the second C isn&#=
39;t /w/)</div><div>CVw: 21*3=3D63</div><div>CVrgh: 21*5=3D105</div><div>CV=
w': 21*3=3D63 (where V=3D/a/, /e/, or /I/)</div>
<div>CVy': 21*5=3D105</div><div>Total=3D2541</div><div><br></div><div>S=
o Klingon has only 906 syllables left to make into new monosyllabic words. =
This makes me further appreciate the constraints MO works under, as when he=
had to rewrite dialogue for STID.</div>
<div><br></div><div>~'eD</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 1:38 AM, Rohan Fenwick <=
span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">qeslagh@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">ghItlhpu' 'eD, jatlh:<br>
> The beginning of this exchange got me thinking again about how many<br=
>
> syllables are possible in Klingon phonology:<br>
(poD)<br>
> I'd guess Klingon has around 1500 monosyllabic words, so the ratio=
of<br>
> sense to nonsense syllables is getting small, less than 1:3.<br>
<br>
I put together a syllable distribution database a while ago, built on the p=
resumption that the legal syllable shapes are CV, CVC, CVrgh, CVw' and =
CVy', with no syllables of the form *Cow(') or *Cuw('). On that=
presumption, there are 2,541 possible legal Klingon syllables, and if my d=
ata are up to date then 1,635 of those possibilities are currently attested=
(64.3%). Of those, 1,461 (89.3%) are monosyllabic words; an additional 174=
syllable shapes are attested only in polysyllabic words. That puts the rat=
io of sense to nonsense syllables at a little under 3:2.<br>
<br>
taH:<br>
> But one error-checking mechanism of a language is that nonsense monosy=
llables<br>
> outnumber their intelligible counterparts (though this is probably not=
the<br>
> case for Hawaiian).<br>
<br>
Like most Polynesian languages Hawaiian requires lexical words to be at lea=
st bimoraic, so to have either at least one long vowel or at least two shor=
t vowels, but Japanese might be an example where intelligible lexical monos=
yllables might be more numerous than nonsense ones.<br>
<br>
QeS<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>My modeling =
blog:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http=
://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon-=
modeler.blogspot.com/</a><br>My other modeling blog:=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http:=
//bellerophon.blog.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com/</a>=
<br>
</div>
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