[97442] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Story: ghuv = The Recruit - 51
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Wed Oct 23 11:33:10 2013
In-Reply-To: <ACF6622D959A8842A81E4471BA56A7E001F7BF57@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:32:32 -0700
To: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============8110459854620161526==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=Apple-Mail-25556896-FAA6-4F98-B74D-908257735F79
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--Apple-Mail-25556896-FAA6-4F98-B74D-908257735F79
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1251
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 2013-10-23, at 7:53, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> ngongmeH wa' DujDaq nuHmey nISbe'bogh So'wI' jomlu'pu'
> [A cloaking device which didn't disrupt weaponry was installed in one expe=
rimental ship. (untranslated on card)] S33
Interesting that it's not ngonglu'meH. I initially read it as ngongmeH wa' .=
..
I also like that there's no need to add -'e' because the verb only permits o=
ne noun to be the head. I like -'e' to be a disambiguator when necessary, bu=
t not an automatic addition when not.=20
> loS... qIb HeHDaq, 'u' SepmeyDaq Sovbe'lu'bogh lenglu'meH He ghoSlu'bogh r=
etlhDaq 'oHtaH
> It waits... on the edge of the galaxy, beside a passage to unknown regions=
of the universe. S99
Ugh. I read that as "Four ... It is at [etcetera]." The ellipsis wasn't enou=
gh to reset the word order. If anyone else had written that I would have the=
m throw out the 'oHtaH and move the loS to its place. Starting the sentence w=
ith the concept of waiting is just not that important. And if they convinced=
me it was, then put a full stop after loS and repeat it as the verb of the s=
econd sentence.=20
> jIHtaHbogh naDev vISovbe'
I've always loved this one. It feels so idiomatic.=20
> Dajatlhbogh vIyajlaHbe'
> I find no match for what you just said. KCD
noy nach Hutlhbogh lIghwI'vetlh.=20
> tajwIj 'oHbe' chorlIj jeqbogh Dochvetlh'e'
> That is not my dagger protruding from your midsection.=20
Interesting how the English translation misses the implication in the Klingo=
n that the speaker may be denying identification not ownership of the weapon=
. tajwIj'e' 'oHbe'. baghneQwIj 'oH.=20
> nuH'e' qengbogh mangghomvam luDel 'e' ra' molor, lujang maS'e' loQ So'be'b=
ogh QIb lurur
> Molor asks them what weapons this army carries, they reply, shaped as the c=
rescent moon. PB
I think nuH is better translated "arsenal" or something there, because it's b=
eing used in the singular: luDel. And then I started to read it as "it was t=
he moons that answered him..." :-)
> vaSvamDaq tuq veng je quvvaD Heghqangbogh SuvwI=92 tu=92be=92lu=92=92a=92
> Is there nobody in this hall prepared to die for the honor of your tribe a=
nd city? PB
>=20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: Robyn Stewart [mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:37 AM
>=20
> The one that trips me up is when complex verbs are reflexive. QeS does it a=
ll the time: rIQ'eghmoHlaHbe'mo' or the like. As non native speakers it's ha=
rd to know what's just our understanding and what's poor Klingon. It's possi=
ble, in universe, that the proverb itself would be hard to parse were it not=
so familiar. I agree that negation is sometimes harder to parse.
> =20
> In this case:
> luSopbe'meH yIHmey boghbejpu' torgh
> =20
> is worse, I think.=20
>=20
> On 2013-10-23, at 0:31, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Qov:
> > luSopmeH yIH boghbe'bejpu' torgh. =3D "Torg was definitely not born for
> > tribbles to eat him."
>=20
> I have trouble parsing {-meH} with negation.
>=20
> I initially read that as:
> "Torg was (definitely not born) for tribbles to eat him."
>=20
> It wasn't until I read the translation that I understood you meant:
> "Torg was definitely not (born for tribbles to eat him)."
>=20
> I have the same trouble with {Hoch DaSopbe'chugh bath bIHeghbe'} so I appa=
rently have trouble understanding {-be'} when it negates complex sentences.
>=20
> --=20
> De'vID
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail-25556896-FAA6-4F98-B74D-908257735F79
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>On 2013-10-23, at 7:53, Steven Boozer &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrot=
e:</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Courier;
panose-1:2 7 4 9 2 2 5 2 4 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Courier;
panose-1:2 7 4 9 2 2 5 2 4 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ari=
al","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">ngongmeH wa' D=
ujDaq nuHmey nISbe'bogh So'wI' jomlu'pu'
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">[<i>A cloaking de=
vice which didn't disrupt weaponry was installed in one experimental ship</i=
>. (untranslated on card)] S33</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div>Interesting that it's not ngonglu'meH. I initially read it as ngongmeH w=
a' ...<div><br></div><div>I also like that there's no need to add -'e' becau=
se the verb only permits one noun to be the head. I like -'e' to be a disamb=
iguator when necessary, but not an automatic addition when not. </div><=
div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">loS</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-family:Courier">...<b> qIb HeHDaq</b>,<b> 'u' SepmeyDaq S=
ovbe'lu'bogh lenglu'meH He ghoSlu'bogh retlhDaq 'oHtaH</b>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">It waits... on th=
e edge of the galaxy, beside a passage to unknown regions of the universe. S=
99</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Ugh. I read that as "Four ...=
It is at [etcetera]." The ellipsis wasn't enough to reset the word order. I=
f anyone else had written that I would have them throw out the 'oHtaH and mo=
ve the loS to its place. Starting the sentence with the concept of waiting i=
s just not that important. And if they convinced me it was, then put a full s=
top after loS and repeat it as the verb of the second sentence. </div><=
div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">jIHtaHbogh naD=
ev vISovbe'</span></b></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I've always love=
d this one. It feels so idiomatic. </div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
family:Courier"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Dajatlhbogh vI=
yajlaHbe'
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">I find no match f=
or what you just said. KCD</span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div>noy n=
ach Hutlhbogh lIghwI'vetlh. </div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:=
Courier"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">tajwIj 'oHbe' c=
horlIj jeqbogh Dochvetlh'e'</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">That is not my da=
gger protruding from your midsection. <br></span></p></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div>Interesting how the English translation misses the implicati=
on in the Klingon that the speaker may be denying identification not ownersh=
ip of the weapon. tajwIj'e' 'oHbe'. baghneQwIj 'oH. </div><div><br></di=
v><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"=
">nuH'e' qengbogh mangghomvam luDel 'e' ra' molor, lujang maS'e' loQ So'be'b=
ogh QIb lurur
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">M=
olor asks them what weapons this army carries, they reply, shaped as the cre=
scent moon. PB<br></span></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I think nuH i=
s better translated "arsenal" or something there, because it's being used in=
the singular: luDel. And then I started to read it as "it was the moons tha=
t answered him..." :-)</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D=
"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Couri=
er New"">
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">vaSvamDaq tuq v=
eng je quvvaD Heghqangbogh SuvwI=E2=80=99 tu=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99=E2=
=80=99a=E2=80=99
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Is there nobody i=
n this hall prepared to die for the honor of your tribe and city? PB</span><=
span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""><br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ari=
al","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ari=
al","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Robyn Stewa=
rt [<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>]=
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:37 AM<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The one that trips me up is when complex verbs are re=
flexive. QeS does it all the time: rIQ'eghmoHlaHbe'mo' or the like. As non n=
ative speakers it's hard to know what's just our understanding and what's po=
or Klingon. It's possible, in universe,
that the proverb itself would be hard to parse were it not so familiar. I a=
gree that negation is sometimes harder to parse.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In this case:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"> </span>luSo=
pbe'meH yIHmey boghbejpu' torgh<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ari=
al","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is worse, I think. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 2013-10-23, at 0:31, "De'vID" <<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.c=
om">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p>Qov:<br>
> luSopmeH yIH boghbe'bejpu' torgh. =3D "Torg was definitely not born for=
<br>
> tribbles to eat him."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I have trouble parsing {-meH} with negation. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I initially read that as:<br>
"Torg was (definitely not born) for tribbles to eat him."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>It wasn't until I read the translation that I understood you meant:<br>
"Torg was definitely not (born for tribbles to eat him)."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I have the same trouble with {Hoch DaSopbe'chugh bath bIHeghbe'} so I app=
arently have trouble understanding {-be'} when it negates complex sentences.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>-- <br>
De'vID<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>__________________________=
_____________________</span><br><span>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br><s=
pan><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a></span><=
br><span><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol">http:=
//mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></span><br></div></blockquot=
e></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-25556896-FAA6-4F98-B74D-908257735F79--
--===============8110459854620161526==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============8110459854620161526==--
