[97144] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Story - Out of order installments
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Fri Sep 6 18:18:46 2013
In-Reply-To: <CABSTb1cVbKPMdByCrUCpZVetfJgrAFWA0T63K1tA7pESOOjZxw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 15:18:06 -0700
To: "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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No, -chugh does not mean whether. That would imply that the approach of the e=
nemy caused some disagreement.=20
On 2013-09-06, at 14:27, "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.c=
om> wrote:
> Disagreement with fact borders on the Orwellian. But one could disagree ab=
out whether a purported fact is correct.
>=20
> MO's appproval of {maQoch 'e' wIQochbe'} opens the door to the object of {=
Qoch} being the (dis)agreed upon statement. lughchu' mu' lo' 'e' maqchugh ma=
rq 'oqranD, vaj lugh lo'vam 'e' wIQochbe''a'?
>=20
> I also expect to see frequent use of {-chuq} as in {Qochchuq tlhIH} or {ma=
Qochbe'chuq} for internal (dis)agreement in a group.
>=20
> Could {-chugh} mean "whether" in {?nughoStaHchugh jagh wIQochchuq}? Could o=
ne interpret it as "If the enemy is approaching us, we disagree with one ano=
ther"? But I think one would say {nughoStaHchugh jagh maQochchuq}. (No way t=
o win battles, that, but common enough in war councils!)
>=20
> ~'eD
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Andr=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller <esperantist@gmail.=
com> wrote:
>> As far as my notes are concerned, the only canonical example really is {m=
aQoch 'e' wIQochbe'.} (We agree to disagree.)
>>=20
>> That means that {Qoch(be')} might at least be a labile verb, which can ha=
ve an object, but doesn't have to (as common in Klingon). The object of {Qoc=
hbe'} here is {'e'}, so it seems logical that one can indeed agree or disagr=
ee with a fact or a statement or an idea. I don't see a reason why it should=
n't.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 2013/9/6 David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name>
>>> On 9/6/2013 2:33 AM, Bellerophon, modeler wrote:
>>>> Might {jIQoch(be')} be uncanonical usage?
>>>=20
>>> lo'pu''a' Okrand?
>>>=20
>>> tlhIngan Hol mu'ghom chutmey pabba' 'ach lo'pu' Okrand 'e' vISovbe'.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> It takes two (or more) to (dis)agree. I can't imagine MO would have
>>>> had a problem with {maQoch 'e' wIQochbe'} as it translates neatly as
>>>> "We agree that we disagree."
>>>=20
>>> I'm not convinced {Qoch} can even take an object. *{ngoDvetlh vIQoch} "I=
disagree with that fact"? Meh.
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> SuStel
>>> http://www.trimboli.name/
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
> My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>No, -chugh does not mean whether. That=
would imply that the approach of the enemy caused some disagreement. <=
/div><div><br>On 2013-09-06, at 14:27, "Bellerophon, modeler" <<a href=3D=
"mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com">bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com</a>>=
wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Disagre=
ement with fact borders on the Orwellian. But one could disagree about wheth=
er a purported fact is correct.<div><br></div><div>MO's appproval of {maQoch=
'e' wIQochbe'} opens the door to the object of {Qoch} being the (dis)agreed=
upon statement. lughchu' mu' lo' 'e' maqchugh marq 'oqranD, vaj lugh lo'vam=
'e' wIQochbe''a'?</div>
<div><div><br><div>I also expect to see frequent use of {-chuq} as in {Qochc=
huq tlhIH} or {maQochbe'chuq} for internal (dis)agreement in a group.</div><=
/div></div><div><br></div><div>Could {-chugh} mean "whether" in {?nughoStaHc=
hugh jagh wIQochchuq}? Could one interpret it as "If the enemy is approachin=
g us, we disagree with one another"? But I think one would say {nughoStaHchu=
gh jagh maQochchuq}. (No way to win battles, that, but common enough in war c=
ouncils!)</div>
<div><br></div><div>~'eD</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Andr=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller <span d=
ir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:esperantist@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">es=
perantist@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>As far as my notes are concerned, the o=
nly canonical example really is {maQoch 'e' wIQochbe'.} (We agree to disagre=
e.)<br>
<br></div>That means that {Qoch(be')} might at least be a labile verb, which=
can have an object, but doesn't have to (as common in Klingon). The object o=
f {Qochbe'} here is {'e'}, so it seems logical that one can indeed agree or d=
isagree with a fact or a statement or an idea. I don't see a reason why it s=
houldn't.<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2013/9/6=
David Trimboli <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:david@trimboli.name"=
target=3D"_blank">david@trimboli.name</a>></span><br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border=
-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>On 9/6/2013 2:33 AM, Bellerophon, modeler wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">
Might {jIQoch(be')} be uncanonical usage?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
lo'pu''a' Okrand?<br>
<br>
tlhIngan Hol mu'ghom chutmey pabba' 'ach lo'pu' Okrand 'e' vISovbe'.<div><br=
>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">
It takes two (or more) to (dis)agree. I can't imagine MO would have<br=
>
had a problem with {maQoch 'e' wIQochbe'} as it translates neatly as<br>
"We agree that we disagree."<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I'm not convinced {Qoch} can even take an object. *{ngoDvetlh vIQoch} "I dis=
agree with that fact"? Meh.<span><font color=3D"#888888"><span><font color=3D=
"#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli.=
name/</a></font></span><div><div><br>
<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>My modeli=
ng blog: <a href=3D"ht=
tp://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon=
-modeler.blogspot.com/</a><br>My other modeling blog: <a href=3D"http:=
//bellerophon.blog.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com/</a><=
br>
</div></div>
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