[97066] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon Word of the Day: naj
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bellerophon, modeler)
Sat Aug 31 14:12:36 2013
In-Reply-To: <5221FFC2.9060100@trimboli.name>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 14:11:57 -0400
From: "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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So when used to present a direct quote, {jatlh} and {ja'} are there for
stage-setting. As with English /said/, they can come after the quote,
though it helps avoid confusion to say {ja'} or {jatlh} before a longer
quote.
If the wiki is correct, then {lut vIja'pu'} wouldn't mean "I told the
story" but rather "I told him/her/them the story", as opposed to {lut
qaja'pu'} or {lut Saja'pu'}. And {Dotlh yIja'} would mean "Report status to
him!" (apparently someone else needs that report) as opposed to {Dotlh
HIja'} "Report status (to me)!" I guess clipped would be simply {Dotlh ja'}.
I'm confused about indirect quotes. Acc. to TKD, neither {'e'} nor {net} is
used with {jatlh} or {ja'}. You don't say {*qama'pu' neH 'e' jatlh la'},
but if you say {qama'pu' neH jatlh la'} what does it mean? "The commander
says (that) he wants prisoners" or "The commander says, 'He wants
prisoners.' " A direct quote would be {jatlh la' qama'pu' vIneH} (the
commander says, "I want prisoners"), but speaking in someone else's voice
in such a situation seems awkward and presumptuous, at least for English
speakers.
~'eD
On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 10:37 AM, David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name>
wrote:
> On 8/30/2013 11:48 PM, Bellerophon, modeler wrote:
>
> Back to verb prefixes, I take it {jatlh} is the only verb that uses
>> intransitive prefixes when a direct object is specified (in the case
>> of {jatlh}, the direct quote).
>>
>
> A direct quotation is never an object. {jatlh} CAN take an object, as in
> {SoQ vIjatlh} "I speak the lecture; I give a lecture." The prefix of
> {jatlh} is the same as for any other verb.
>
> According to mughom.wikia.com <http://mughom.wikia.com> (who started
>> that anyway? I see some contributions by Qurgh, but a lot more by
>> Anonymous), the object of {ja'} is the addressee rather than the
>> direct quote, so one uses it thus: yaS vIja' <direct quote>, rather
>> than yaS jIja' <direct quote>.
>>
>
> The possible objects of {ja'} have never been clarified to my
> satisfaction. No examples of {ja'} show an explicit object, but several use
> prefixes that indicate an object (e.g., {qaja'pu'} "I told you"). But I
> think it would be perfectly reasonable to use sentences like {lut vIja'pu'}
> "I told the story" or {Dotlh yIja'} "Report status!" Does canon reflect a
> form of the prefix trick? Is the object of {ja'} broad enough to reflect
> either a direct or indirect object? Or is that wiki correct and the object
> is always the party being told something, and that something can only ever
> be a direct quotation?
>
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/**listinfo/tlhingan-hol<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>
--
My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">So when used to present a direct quote, {=
jatlh} and {ja'} are there for stage-setting. As with English /said/, t=
hey can come after the quote, though it=C2=A0helps avoid confusion to=C2=A0=
say {ja'} or {jatlh} before a longer quote.<div>
<br></div><div>If the wiki is correct, then {lut vIja'pu'} wouldn&#=
39;t mean "I told the story" but rather "I told him/her/them=
the story", as opposed to {lut qaja'pu'} or {lut Saja'pu&=
#39;}. And {Dotlh yIja'} would mean "Report status to him!" (=
apparently someone else needs that report) as opposed to {Dotlh HIja'} =
"Report status (to me)!" I guess clipped would be simply {Dotlh j=
a'}.</div>
<div><br></div><div><div>I'm confused about indirect quotes. Acc. to TK=
D, neither {'e'} nor {net} is used with {jatlh} or {ja'}. You d=
on't say {*qama'pu' neH 'e' jatlh la'}, but if you =
say {qama'pu' neH jatlh la'} what does it mean? "The comma=
nder says (that) he wants prisoners" or "The commander says, '=
;He wants prisoners.' " A direct quote would be {jatlh la' qam=
a'pu' vIneH} (the commander says, "I want prisoners"), bu=
t speaking in someone else's voice in such a situation seems awkward an=
d presumptuous, at least for English speakers.</div>
<div><br></div><div>~'eD</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 10:37 AM, David Trimboli=C2=A0<span dir=3D"ltr"><=
;<a href=3D"mailto:david@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">david@trimboli.na=
me</a>></span>=C2=A0wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,2=
04,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
On 8/30/2013 11:48 PM, Bellerophon, modeler wrote:<br><br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Back to verb prefixes, I take it {jatlh} is the only verb that uses<br>intr=
ansitive prefixes when a direct object is specified (in the case<br>of {jat=
lh}, the direct quote).<br></blockquote><br>A direct quotation is never an =
object. {jatlh} CAN take an object, as in<br>
{SoQ vIjatlh} "I speak the lecture; I give a lecture." The prefix=
of {jatlh} is the same as for any other verb.<br><br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border=
-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
According to=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://mughom.wikia.com/" target=3D"_blank">mu=
ghom.wikia.com</a>=C2=A0<<a href=3D"http://mughom.wikia.com/" target=3D"=
_blank">http://mughom.wikia.com</a>> (who started<br>that anyway? I see =
some contributions by Qurgh, but a lot more by<br>
Anonymous), the object of {ja'} is the addressee rather than the<br>dir=
ect quote, so one uses it thus: yaS vIja' <direct quote>, rather<=
br>than yaS jIja' <direct quote>.<br></blockquote><br>The possibl=
e objects of {ja'} have never been clarified to my satisfaction. No exa=
mples of {ja'} show an explicit object, but several use prefixes that i=
ndicate an object (e.g., {qaja'pu'} "I told you"). But I =
think it would be perfectly reasonable to use sentences like {lut vIja'=
pu'} "I told the story" or {Dotlh yIja'} "Report sta=
tus!" Does canon reflect a form of the prefix trick? Is the object of =
{ja'} broad enough to reflect either a direct or indirect object? Or is=
that wiki correct and the object is always the party being told something,=
and that something can only ever be a direct quotation?<div class=3D"">
<div id=3D":1vd" class=3D"" tabindex=3D"0"><img class=3D"" src=3D"https://m=
ail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif" style=3D""></div></div><span c=
lass=3D""><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>--=C2=A0<br>SuStel<br><a href=3D"=
http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli.name/</a><=
br>
<br>______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>Tlhingan-hol =
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">T=
lhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/=
tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo=
/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote><div><span class=3D""><br></span></div></div><sp=
an class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"></span>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">-- <br>My modeling blog:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://bellerophon-modeler.=
blogspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/</=
a><br>
My other modeling blog:=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://bellerophon.blog.com/" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com/</a><br>
</div></div>
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