[96952] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Sunlight and Starlight
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Mon Aug 19 15:42:10 2013
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CABSTb1eNqv2sRsjXqaZk2QEAabVhKc3WnU+7S1u8ruenCfnYGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:41:55 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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=20
=D8 'o Qov, jItaghqa' 'e' Dachaw'.
=20
vIchaw=92bej. You probably wanted the imperative there, though. <... =
=91e=92
yIchaw=92>.
=20
=D8 jIQochbe'! jIQaghtaHbe'chugh jIghojbe'choH. maSwov lubopbe'mo' =
QaghwIj,
jabbI'IDghomDaq qajangbe'.
=20
DaH qayajchu=92.
=20
Also if you have formed an idea about Klingon from your long association
with TKD and it doesn't match what's being done here, make us defend our
usage with canon, not with habit.=20
=20
My ideas about Klingon come from speculation rather than usage. Clearly
canon is like the tip of an iceberg, giving tantalizing hints about what
lies beneath the surface.
=20
Consider for instance the three canon nominalizers: -wI' makes a noun of
agency as in muvwI' (at least for non-stative verbs); -ghach makes =
either a
noun expressing a state as in lo'laHghach or a noun expressing a result =
(or
a new state) as in naDHa'ghach; and <null> results in all sorts of nouns
that are identical in form to the verb. The apparent non-canon =
nominalizer
-la' is seen only in the noun Qapla', which expresses a result. If =
Qapla' is
not just a unique idiom, could different meanings result from <null>,
-ghach, and -la'? The use of nominalizers in English is often idiomatic, =
and
I wonder what the full grammar and usage might be in Klingon. For =
example,
could the verb pab "follow (rules)" result not only in pab "grammar," =
but
also pabghach "observance (of rules)", and pabla' "a fair move"? =
Probably
not, but the possibilities are vast and we'll never find out all Maltz
knows! Do'Ha'!
=20
We know that using =96ghach on a bare verb is awkward-sounding, so =
it=92s more
of a nominalizer of a the verbal concept expressed by the verb and other
suffixes. I=92ve never heard anyone speculate that la=92 could be a =
productive
suffix. Ending in =96la=92 I can think only of qo=92la=92, Qapla=92, and =
from qep=92a=92
the uncertainly-spelled jaqta=92la=92. The first is obviously a =
loanword. If the
third were a nominalization of being bold it would be almost =
embarrassingly
hilarious, seeing as a producer made it up and only cleared it through =
Marc
afterwards.
=20
Those of you who have become proficient in Klingon demonstrate what can =
(or
can't) be expressed in accordance with canon. This has helped guide MO =
to
expand on topics like comparatives and superlatives, which he barely =
touched
in TKD. You are like test pilots. I might get a little stick time, but =
I'm a
slide-rule guy.
=20
As long as you=92re enjoying the game.
=20
- Qov=20
P.S. If anyone can give me a tutorial on marking attributed text in =
Outlook,
I=92d be pretty grateful and so would others who are trying to figure =
out what
my part is in an ongoing thread.
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:18.0pt'><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=D8<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3DIT>'o Qov, =
jItaghqa' 'e' Dachaw'.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>vIchaw’bej. You probably wanted the imperative there, though. =
<... ‘e’ yIchaw’>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=D8<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]>jIQochbe'! =
jIQaghtaHbe'chugh jIghojbe'choH. maSwov lubopbe'mo' QaghwIj, <span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>j</span><span=
lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>abbI'IDghom</=
span><span lang=3DIT>Daq qajangbe'.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DIT =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>DaH qayajchu’.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Also if you have formed an idea about Klingon from =
your long association with TKD and it doesn't match what's being done =
here, make us defend our usage with canon, not with =
habit. <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>My ideas about Klingon come from speculation rather =
than usage. Clearly canon is like the tip of an iceberg, giving =
tantalizing hints about what lies beneath the =
surface.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Consider for instance the three canon nominalizers: =
-wI' makes a noun of agency as in muvwI' (at least for non-stative =
verbs); -ghach makes either a noun expressing a state as in lo'laHghach =
or a noun expressing a result (or a new state) as in naDHa'ghach; and =
<null> results in all sorts of nouns that are identical in form to =
the verb. The apparent non-canon nominalizer -la' is seen only in =
the noun Qapla', which expresses a result. If Qapla' is not just a =
unique idiom, could different meanings result from <null>, -ghach, =
and -la'? The use of nominalizers in English is often idiomatic, =
and I wonder what the full grammar and usage might be in Klingon. For =
example, could the verb pab "follow (rules)" result not only =
in pab "grammar," but also pabghach "observance (of =
rules)", and pabla' "a fair move"? Probably not, but the =
possibilities are vast and we'll never find out all Maltz knows! =
Do'Ha'!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>We know that using –ghach on a bare verb is awkward-sounding, =
so it’s more of a nominalizer of a the verbal concept expressed by =
the verb and other suffixes.=A0 I’ve never heard anyone speculate =
that la’ could be a productive suffix. Ending in –la’ =
I can think only of qo’la’, Qapla’, and from =
qep’a’ the uncertainly-spelled jaqta’la’. The =
first is obviously a loanword. If the third were a nominalization of =
being bold it would be almost embarrassingly hilarious, seeing as a =
producer made it up and only cleared it through Marc =
afterwards.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Those of you who have become proficient in Klingon =
demonstrate what can (or can't) be expressed in accordance with canon. =
This has helped guide MO to expand on topics like comparatives and =
superlatives, which he barely touched in TKD. You are like test pilots. =
I might get a little stick time, but I'm a slide-rule =
guy.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As long as you’re enjoying the game.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if =
!supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Qov <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>P.S. If anyone can give me a tutorial on marking attributed text in =
Outlook, I’d be pretty grateful and so would others who are trying =
to figure out what my part is in an ongoing =
thread.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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