[96845] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] bom mu'mey
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bellerophon, modeler)
Wed Jul 31 12:48:18 2013
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 12:47:44 -0400
From: "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Qapla'! Immigrant Song it is, Russ.
Robyn, thanks for the detailed analysis. chu'chu'wI' jIH. I know it's
impossible for you to tell what's intentional and what's not, when it's
just plain wrong. I'm always typing "i" for "I" due to astigmatism, but
rarely lower case D's. I was also trying to force the translation to fit,
which can call for clipping or some other deviation from normal grammar. I
used superfluous pronouns to fill in the meter. Some parts of my
translation are not as good as others. bIQHalmey isn't the destination for
maghoS; it just ended up there due to the meter but it messes up the
meaning so I'll try to fix it. I was completely stumped at "western shore"
and rendered it as "puH Hop." (I gave up when the best I could do was
"puH', 'emDaqbogh jaH pemHov," or land behind which goes the sun.) I'm glad
the "threshing oar" was recognizable thanks to the Dujmey. I left the moH
out of bochenmoHqa' by mistake, and bochenmoHqa' fits. Building new ruins
is definitely not what I meant.
Some of the errors are just plain stupidity. For starters, I have no idea
why I typed "bop" when I meant "bom", not just once but twice. cha'vatlh
rep. ghIq Qapchu'Ha' yabwIJ.
Laurence should have gotten his money by now. I look forward to seeing you
all at qep'a' cha'maH wa'DIch.
Here is another version in which I hope I fixed everything. It mostly seems
to follow the meter of the original song. I changed the verb in the second
line to macholbejlI'. The original song just says "we come" but this fits
and is more threatening. I rendered "peace and trust" as "roj meq
je". Doesn't meq mean "reason, logic" as opposed to "reason, motive"? The
conquered had better listen to reason. (Don't know what I was doing with
latlh in there. Must have been losing consciousness.) There is still much
room for improvement.
*pawwI' **chu'** bom*
'a a a 'a'! 'a a a 'a'!
chuch puHvo', SoDtaH bIQHalmey tujDaq
ramjep pemHovvo' macholbejlI' maH.
puHmeyDaQ Dujmeymaj yuv Qunpu' mupwI',
novghom'a' wISuvmo', wIbomtaH, wIjachtaH: Suto'vo'qor, jIghoStaH!
maDonchuqtaH, moqtaH bI'wI'mo'. wa' ngoQmaj 'oHbej puH Hop'e'.
'a a a 'a'! 'a a a 'a'!
chuch puHvo', SoDtaH bIQHalmey tujDaq
ramjep pemHovvo' macholbejlI' maH.
tunqu' bIH yotlhmeyraj SuDqu''e'. 'Iwmo' lutmey tlhuplaH bIH,
veS yu'eghmey DIjotmoHta'. joHpu'raj joHpu' maH.
maDonchuqtaH, moqtaH bI'wI'mo'. wa' ngoQmaj 'oHbej puH Hop'e'.
DaH SumevnIS tlhiH 'ej pIghraj botI'nISqa',
wa'leS che'qa'taH roj meq je. 'ach jajvam SulujtaH.
'a a, 'a a a'
'a a, 'a a a'
[DIr'Inmey]
'eD
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Russ Perry Jr <russperryjr@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> Qov, it's Led Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song".
>
> On Jul 31, 2013, at 5:05 AM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
>
> On 2013-07-30, at 23:15, "Bellerophon, modeler" <
> bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I attempted a translation of a song that needs to be in Klingon. Let's see
> if anyone recognizes it. I took some artistic license:
>
>
> Artistic license is when you translate English with a valid word that
> means something else. Making noun-verb compounds or using a word as the
> wrong part of speech is just abuse.
>
> I coined "chu'pawwI"
>
>
> Your meaning is covered without grammatical error by pawwI' chu' - one
> who arrives and who is new. Also:
> chu'wI' - one who is new
> taghwI' - beginner
> chu'chu'wI' - complete newbie
>
> for newcomer, which is close to the word in the English title, and used
> "ped" as a noun.
>
>
> ped is nothing. peD is a verb.
>
> I committed other crimes to try to fit the meter, and there will always be
> typos.
>
>
> The issue here is what do you want us to do about it? I'm happy to help
> someone write clearer, more grammatical Klingon, but when he says, "look at
> this thing I did, I know it's wrong, I did that on purpose," what is the
> point? I'll try to guess what you don't know and say what it means to me as
> I read it.
>
> *chu'pawwI' bop*
>
>
> pawwI' chu' bop
> It is about the new arrival.
>
> chuch ped
>
>
> chuch peD je - it also snows ice
>
> puHvo' ramjep
>
> pemHovvo'
> SoDtaH
>
>
> From the land, from the midnight daytime star (we have a word jul now for
> sun, but I just figured out from the English term that you might mean "from
> the land of the midnight sun"). Create your noun-noun grouping first, then
> put -vo' on the final element.
>
> ramjep jul puH - midnight sun land
>
> ramjep jul puHvo' SoDtaH - It floods from the midnight sun land
>
> A noun with -Daq or -vo' goes at the beginning of its clause, so when I
> see one in the middle of a sentence without a conjunction or punctuation, I
> get confused. I'm inserting sentence breaks where that happens.
>
> bIQHalmey tujDaq maghoS maH.
>
>
> I'm okay with bIQHalmey tuj for hot springs, but bIHDaq maghoS means that
> we proceed already in them. You probably want bIH DIghoS, we go to them.
>
> puHmeyDaQ
>
>
> DaQ is ponytail. I know you mean "-Daq."
>
> Dujmeymaj yuv Qunpu' mupwI',
>
>
> So, "the gods' hammer pushes our ships to lands," Or maybe "on the lands"
>
> novghom'a' wISuvmo',
>
>
> because we fight an alien horde.
>
> wIbomtaH, wIjachtaH: Suto'vo'qor, jIghoStaH!
>
>
> We sing it, we scream it, Valhalla, I'm coming.
>
> DonchuqtaH maH,
>
>
> We go parallel to one another, (don't forget the prefix on maDon)
>
> moqtaH bI'wI'mo'. wa' ngoQmaj 'oHbej puH Hop'e'.
>
>
> because our oars beat. (I like that one, given the ship context, bI'wI' is
> understandable as oar. Distant land is definitely one of our goals.
>
>
> tunqu' bIH yotlhmey SuDqu''e'.
>
>
> The green fields are so soft.
>
> 'Iwmo' lutmey tlhuplaH bIH,
>
>
> They can whisper songs because of blood.
>
> veS yu'eghmey DIjotmoHta' 'e'.
>
>
> We have calmed the waves of warfare. (no idea what that 'e' is trying to
> do)
>
> joHpu'raj joHpu' maH.
>
>
> We are the lords of your lords.
>
> DaH SumevnIS tlhiH 'ej pIghraj bochenqa',
>
>
> You must stop now and you will -- okay you're going for "rebuild your
> ruins." The subject of chen is the thing that takes form. With another
> actor, use chenmoH. pIghraj bochenqa'moH makes me first think of building
> new ruins. Is that an idiom in English?
>
> 'ach wa'leS lutlhlaH roj voq ej, 'ach jajvam SulujtaH.
>
>
> But tomorrow the peace can be primitive ... and he trusts it? ('ej is in
> the wrong place) .. but this day you are losing.
>
> So from context it's a Viking song, but I don't know it.
>
> People always feel compelled to translate songs, and are often affronted
> when we beg them to walk before they run, but there we are.
>
> qep'a'Daq qaqIH 'e' vItIv. wa' nem qaStaHvIS wanI' naQ bISaH 'e' vItul.
>
> And 'angghal seemed to think you owed him money.
>
> - Qov
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
--
My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Qapla'! Immigrant Song it is, Russ.<div><br></div><div=
>Robyn, thanks for the detailed analysis.=A0chu'chu'wI' jIH.=A0=
I know it's impossible for you to tell what's intentional and what&=
#39;s not, when it's just plain wrong. I'm always typing "i&qu=
ot; for "I" due to astigmatism, but rarely lower case D's. I =
was also trying to force the translation to fit, which can call for clippin=
g or some other deviation from normal grammar. I used superfluous pronouns =
to fill in the meter. Some parts of my translation are not as good as other=
s. bIQHalmey isn't the destination for maghoS; it just ended up there d=
ue to the meter but it messes up the meaning so I'll try to fix it. I w=
as completely stumped at "western shore" and rendered it as "=
;puH Hop." (I gave up when the best I could do was "puH', =
9;emDaqbogh jaH pemHov," or land behind which goes the sun.) I'm g=
lad the "threshing oar" was recognizable thanks to the Dujmey. I =
left the moH out of bochenmoHqa' by mistake, and bochenmoHqa' fits.=
Building new ruins is definitely not what I meant.</div>
<div><div><br></div><div>Some of the errors are just plain stupidity. For s=
tarters, I have no idea why I typed "bop" when I meant "bom&=
quot;, not just once but twice. =A0cha'vatlh rep. ghIq Qapchu'Ha=
9; yabwIJ.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Laurence should have gotten his money by now. I look fo=
rward to seeing you all at qep'a' cha'maH wa'DIch.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Here is another version in which I hope I fixed everything=
. It mostly seems to follow the meter of the original song. I changed the v=
erb in the second line to macholbejlI'. The original song just says &qu=
ot;we come" but this fits and is more threatening. I rendered "pe=
ace and trust" as "roj meq je".=A0Doesn't meq mean "=
;reason, logic" as opposed to "reason, motive"? The conquere=
d had better listen to reason.=A0(Don't know what I was doing with latl=
h in there. Must have been losing consciousness.) There is still much room =
for improvement.</div>
<div><br></div><div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13=
px"><u>pawwI'=A0</u><u>chu'</u><u>=A0bom</u></div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
'a a a 'a'! 'a a a 'a'!</div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">chuch puHvo', SoDtaH bIQHalmey tuj=
Daq</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">ramjep =
pemHovvo' macholbejlI' maH.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">puHmeyDaQ Dujmey=
maj yuv Qunpu' mupwI',</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-se=
rif;font-size:13px">novghom'a' wISuvmo', wIbomtaH, wIjachtaH: S=
uto'vo'qor, jIghoStaH!</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">maDonchuqtaH, moqtaH b=
I'wI'mo'. wa' ngoQmaj 'oHbej puH Hop'e'.</div><=
div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">'a=
a a 'a'! 'a a a 'a'!</div><div style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div>chuch puHvo', SoDtaH bIQHalmey tujD=
aq</div>
<div>ramjep pemHovvo' macholbejlI' maH.</div></div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">tunqu' bIH yotlhmeyraj SuDqu=
''e'. 'Iwmo' lutmey tlhuplaH bIH,</div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
veS yu'eghmey DIjotmoHta'. joHpu'raj joHpu' maH.</div><div =
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">maDonchuqtaH, moqtaH bI=
9;wI'mo'. wa' ngoQmaj 'oHbej puH Hop'e'.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">DaH SumevnIS tlhiH =
9;ej pIghraj botI'nISqa',</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans=
-serif;font-size:13px">
wa'leS che'qa'taH roj meq je. 'ach jajvam SulujtaH.</div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">'a a, 'a a=
a'</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">=
9;a a, 'a a a'</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">[DIr'Inmey]<=
/div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">'eD</div></di=
v>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 3=
1, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Russ Perry Jr <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:r=
ussperryjr@sbcglobal.net" target=3D"_blank">russperryjr@sbcglobal.net</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div>Qov, it's Led Zeppelin'=
;s "Immigrant Song".</div>
</div><div><br>On Jul 31, 2013, at 5:05 AM, Robyn Stewart <<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> w=
rote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>On 2013-07-30, at 23=
:15, "Bellerophon, modeler" <<a href=3D"mailto:bellerophon.mod=
eler@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com</a>> wro=
te:</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I attem=
pted a translation of a song that needs to be in Klingon. Let's see if =
anyone recognizes it. I took some artistic license: </div></div></div></blo=
ckquote>
<div><br></div>Artistic license is when you translate English with a valid =
word that means something else. Making noun-verb compounds or using a word =
as the wrong part of speech is just abuse.=A0<div><br><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite">
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I coined "chu'pawwI" </div></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div>Your meaning is covered without grammatica=
l error by=A0<span>pawwI' chu' - one who arrives and who is new. Al=
so:</span><br>
chu'wI' - one who is new=A0<div>taghwI' - beginner</div><div>ch=
u'chu'wI' - complete newbie</div><div><br></div><div><div><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>for newcomer, which is clos=
e to the word in the English title, and used "ped" as a noun. </d=
iv>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>ped is nothing. peD is a verb.=A0</=
div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I committ=
ed other crimes to try to fit the meter, and there will always be typos.</d=
iv>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>The issue here is what do you want =
us to do about it? I'm happy to help someone write clearer, more gramma=
tical Klingon, but when he says, "look at this thing I did, I know it&=
#39;s wrong, I did that on purpose," what is the point? I'll try t=
o guess what you don't know and say what it means to me as I read it.=
=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><u>chu'pawwI' bop</u></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div>pawwI' chu' bop</div><div>It is about the new arrival.=A0</div=
><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>chuch ped </=
div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>chuch peD je - it also snows ice</d=
iv><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>puHvo'=
ramjep</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">
<div>pemHovvo'</div><div>SoDtaH </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div>From the land, from the midnight daytime star (we have a word jul no=
w for sun, but I just figured out from the English term that you might mean=
"from the land of the midnight sun"). Create your noun-noun grou=
ping first, then put -vo' on the final element.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>ramjep jul puH - midnight sun land</div><div><br></div>=
<div>ramjep jul puHvo' SoDtaH - It floods from the midnight sun land<br=
><div><br></div>A noun with -Daq or -vo' goes at the beginning of its c=
lause, so when I see one in the middle of a sentence without a conjunction =
or punctuation, I get confused. I'm inserting sentence breaks where tha=
t happens.=A0<br>
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>bIQHalmey tujDaq m=
aghoS maH.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I'm okay with b=
IQHalmey tuj for hot springs, but bIHDaq maghoS means that we proceed alrea=
dy in them. You probably want bIH DIghoS, we go to them.=A0<br>
<div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>puHmeyDaQ </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>DaQ is ponytai=
l. I know you mean "-Daq."</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Dujmeymaj yuv Qunpu' mupwI',</div></di=
v>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div>So, "the gods' hammer pushes our=
ships to lands," Or maybe "on the lands"</div><div><br><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>novghom'a' wISuvmo=
', </div>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>because we fight an alien horde.=A0=
<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>wIbomtaH, wIja=
chtaH: Suto'vo'qor, jIghoStaH!</div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br>
</div>We sing it, we scream it, Valhalla, I'm coming.=A0</div><div><br>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>DonchuqtaH maH,</div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>We go parallel to one another, (don&=
#39;t forget the prefix on maDon)=A0</div>
<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div> moqtaH bI=
9;wI'mo'. wa' ngoQmaj 'oHbej puH Hop'e'.</div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span>because our oars beat. (I like tha=
t one, given the ship context, bI'wI' is understandable as oar. Dis=
tant land is definitely one of our goals.=A0</span><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><br></div><div>tunqu' bIH yotlhmey SuDqu''e'.</div></d=
iv></blockquote><div><br></div>The green fields are so soft.=A0</div><div><=
br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div> 'Iwmo' lutmey t=
lhuplaH bIH,</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div>They can whisper songs because of blood.=
=A0</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>veS yu'eghmey DIjotmoHta' 'e'. </div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div>We have calmed the waves of warfare. (no idea what that &#=
39;e' is trying to do)</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">
<div>joHpu'raj joHpu' maH.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>W=
e are the lords of your lords.=A0</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div>
DaH SumevnIS tlhiH 'ej pIghraj bochenqa',</div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div>You must stop now and you will =A0-- okay you're going fo=
r "rebuild your ruins." The subject of chen is the thing that tak=
es form. With another actor, use chenmoH. pIghraj bochenqa'moH makes me=
first think of building new ruins. Is that an idiom in English?</div>
<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>'ach wa'le=
S lutlhlaH roj voq ej, 'ach jajvam SulujtaH.</div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div>But tomorrow the peace can be primitive ... and he trusts it? =
('ej is in the wrong place) .. but this day you are losing.=A0</div>
<div><br></div></div></div><div>So from context it's a Viking song, but=
I don't know it.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>People always feel compel=
led to translate songs, and are often affronted when we beg them to walk be=
fore they run, but there we are.</div>
<div><br></div><div>qep'a'Daq qaqIH 'e' vItIv. wa' nem =
qaStaHvIS wanI' naQ bISaH 'e' vItul.=A0</div><div><br></div><di=
v>And 'angghal seemed to think you owed him money.=A0</div><div><br></d=
iv>
<div>- Qov</div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>___=
____________________________________________</span><br><span>Tlhingan-hol m=
ailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkin=
gdom.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a></span=
><br>
<span><a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-=
hol" target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlh=
ingan-hol</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div><br>______________________=
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