[96710] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] bom'e' vImughpu'bogh
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Brian Cote)
Mon Jul 15 10:44:03 2013
From: Brian Cote <coteb2@owls.southernct.edu>
To: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:43:24 +0000
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Thank you for your critique.
I have a quick question for you though. With <<bomvam'e'>> I was intending =
to mark the head noun of the relative clause. Did I do this incorrectly? If=
I had written <<qen bomvam'e' 'IH qonbogh John Lennon vImugh>>, would that=
be correct? Further would <<qen bomvam'e' 'IH tera' DIS wa'SaD Hutvatlh So=
chmaH wa' qonbogh John Lennon vImugh>> be correct, even though it seems unn=
ecessarily unwieldy?
Also, I did know about the pronoun 'e', but I see know that I didn't unders=
tand how generally it could be applied. I was thinking it was pretty much l=
imited to verbs of thinking or observation, but it can be used with pretty =
much any verb in the right context, right?
Finally, I'm planning on actually singing this once I have a translation th=
at is satisfying word-wise and grammar-wise. This is why the translation se=
ems so loose. I've kept the same rhythm and rhyme scheme, both of which int=
roduce their own problems beyond my tenuous grasp of Klingon grammar.
Hello everyone. qen 'IH bomvam'e' DIS 1971 qonbogh jan lennon vImugh.
I know what you=92re trying to say, but the construction you are trying for=
in this sentence, is not working.
You want =93I recently translated this beautiful song which John Lennon wro=
te in 1971.=94
Remember that bomvam =91IH is =93this beautiful song=94 and =91IH bomvam is=
=93this song is beautiful.=94
You can=92t build a noun1 noun2 construction with a type-5 on the first nou=
n, so I have to interpret the first noun as independent, not part of the su=
bject or object. So I get ...
Recently this very song is beautiful I translate John Lennon who composed t=
he year 1971.
or
Recently this very song is beautiful I translate the year 1971 which John L=
ennon composed.
Plus a couple of style notes:
*we don=92t usually transliterate proper nouns: just leave it as John Lenno=
n.
* DIS 1971 looks really weird to me. I=92m pretty sure all the examples are=
as [tera=92] DIS wa=92SaD Hutvatlh SochmaH wa=92.
<<Imagine>> 'oH, 'ach <<yIqel>> vIpong.
I like that choice very much.
lughchugh pab jItu'meH naDev vIlan. botIv 'e' vItul je.
You want to say =93I put it here to find if the grammar is correct, but the=
kind of =93if=94 that means =93whether=94 isn=92t =96chugh.
How about lugh pab =91e=92 vI=92olmeH naDev vIlan.
Now the song.
Imagine there's no heaven
it's easy if you try
no hell below us
above us only sky
imagine all the people
living for today
yIqel. Suto'vo'qor Dun
tu'lu'be'. ngeD. yInID.
qo' bIngDaq ghe'tor
botu'laHbe'. yIchID.
yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,
wa'leS yInchoHlaH.
It=92s not a close translation, but it=92s not ungrammatical. I don=92t kno=
w if you haven=92t used =91e=92 because it doesn=92t scan, or because you d=
on=92t know how to use it. You should learn about it. The word =91e=92 not =
the affix =96=91e=92.
Imagine there's no countries
it isn't hard to do
nothing to live or die for
and no religion too
imagine all the people
living life in peace
yIqel. pagh Sep, pagh qo' je.
Not a sentence.
lIQatlhbe'.
Qatlh is not a verb that tlhIH can easily be the object of, and it certainl=
y doesn=92t make sense here. Also as you are consistently addressing 2nd pe=
rson plural now, earlier imperatives with no object should be with pe-. peq=
el.
DaH Salay'.
vaj yIntaHmeH qoj HeghmeH
pagh meq'e' naDlu'bogh.
yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,
roj 'oH ngoQmaj'e'.
You, you may say I'm a dreamer
but I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one.
rut, rut jInajtaH. Dajatlhjaj.
-jaj translates may only in the sense of =93O may I finally win the lottery=
.=94 The idea you are translating there wants chaq.
'a jImobtaHbe'. ghomuv.
chaq 'opleS latlh boqIHlaH,
tagha' tay'choHbejmo' Hoch.
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
yIqel. pay' pagh wIghajchugh,
DaHar'a'?
rut jISIv.
This is: =93If we suddenly have nothing, do you believe it? Sometimes I won=
der.=94
possibly =93If we suddenly had nothing would you believe it? Sometimes I wo=
nder.=94
but it=92s not =93I wonder if you can.=94
How about: pagh wIghaj =91e=92 DaHarlaH =91e=92 vISIv.
wa' nugh chenmoH Hoch ghotpu'.
moj is more appropriate here, or with some rewording, chen.
qurbe' ghungbe' 'ej.
qur and ghung are verbs, so the connecting conjunction goes between them.
nIv.
yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,
nItebHa' yInlaH.
I am not a music person so I can=92t answer to whether the verse scans, but=
I assume that is your reason for diverging from the original wording. Reme=
mber that in English if you say =93Consider=94 the person is expecting the =
thing to consider to follow, but in Klingon the thing to consider would nor=
mally precede, so the song may be choppier than you realize.
You might learn more if you attempted a closer translation of the words, wi=
thout worrying about syllable count or rhyme. I do understand the urge to r=
ender something you like in your native language into Klingon.
- Qov
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Thank you for=
your critique.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I have a quick questi=
on for you though. With <<bomvam'e'>> I was intending to mark t=
he head noun of the relative clause. Did I do this incorrectly? If I had wr=
itten <<qen bomvam'e' 'IH qonbogh John Lennon vImugh>>,
would that be correct? Further would <<qen bomvam'e' 'IH tera' DIS w=
a'SaD Hutvatlh SochmaH wa' qonbogh John Lennon vImugh>> be correct, e=
ven though it seems unnecessarily unwieldy?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Also, I did know abou=
t the pronoun 'e', but I see know that I didn't understand how generally it=
could be applied. I was thinking it was pretty much limited to verbs of th=
inking or observation, but it can be
used with pretty much any verb in the right context, right?<br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Finally, I'm planning=
on actually singing this once I have a translation that is satisfying word=
-wise and grammar-wise. This is why the translation seems so loose. I've ke=
pt the same rhythm and rhyme scheme,
both of which introduce their own problems beyond my tenuous grasp of Klin=
gon grammar.
<br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Hello everyon=
e. qen 'IH bomvam'e' DIS 1971 qonbogh jan lennon vImugh.
</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">I know what you=92re trying to say, but the construction you are tryi=
ng for in this sentence, is not working.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">You want =93I recently translated this beautiful song which John Lenn=
on wrote in 1971.=94
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">Remember that bomvam =91IH is =93this beautiful song=94 and =91IH bom=
vam is =93this song is beautiful.=94</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">You can=92t build a noun1 noun2 construction with a type-5 on the fir=
st noun, so I have to interpret the first noun as independent,
not part of the subject or object. So I get ...</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">Recently this very song is beautiful I translate John Lennon who comp=
osed the year 1971.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">or</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">Recently this very song is beautiful I translate the year 1971 which =
John Lennon composed.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">Plus a couple of style notes:
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">*<b>we don=92t usually transliterate proper nouns: just leave it as J=
ohn Lennon.<br>
</b>* DIS 1971 looks really weird to me. I=92m pretty sure all the examples=
are as [tera=92] DIS wa=92SaD Hutvatlh SochmaH wa=92.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><<Imagi=
ne>> 'oH, 'ach <<yIqel>> vIpong.
</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">I like that choice very much.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">lughchugh pab=
jItu'meH naDev vIlan. botIv 'e' vItul je.</span><span style=3D"font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">You want to say =93I put it here to find if the grammar is correct, b=
ut the kind of =93if=94 that means =93whether=94 isn=92t =96chugh.</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">How about lugh pab =91e=92 vI=92olmeH naDev vIlan.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">Now the song.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Imagine there=
's no heaven<br>
it's easy if you try<br>
no hell below us<br>
above us only sky<br>
imagine all the people<br>
living for today<br>
<br>
yIqel. Suto'vo'qor Dun<br>
tu'lu'be'.</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D"> </span>
<span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:black">ngeD. yInID.</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&=
quot;sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;;color:black">qo' bIngDaq ghe'tor<br>
botu'laHbe'. yIchID.<br>
yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,<br>
wa'leS yInchoHlaH.</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&qu=
ot;sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">It=92s not a close translation, but it=92s not ungrammatical. I don=
=92t know if you haven=92t used =91e=92 because it doesn=92t scan, or becau=
se
you don=92t know how to use it. You should learn about it. The word =91e=
=92 not the affix =96=91e=92.<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;;color:black"><br>
Imagine there's no countries<br>
it isn't hard to do<br>
nothing to live or die for<br>
and no religion too<br>
imagine all the people<br>
living life in peace<br>
<br>
yIqel. pagh Sep, pagh qo' je.</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">Not a sentence.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">lIQatlhbe'.
</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">Qatlh is not a verb that tlhIH can easily be the object of, and it ce=
rtainly doesn=92t make sense here. Also as you are consistently
addressing 2<sup>nd</sup> person plural now, earlier imperatives with no o=
bject should be with pe-. peqel.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">DaH Salay'.<b=
r>
vaj yIntaHmeH qoj HeghmeH<br>
pagh meq'e' naDlu'bogh.<br>
yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,<br>
roj 'oH ngoQmaj'e'.<br>
<br>
You, you may say I'm a dreamer<br>
but I'm not the only one<br>
I hope someday you'll join us<br>
And the world will be as one.<br>
<br>
rut, rut jInajtaH. Dajatlhjaj.</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">-jaj translates may only in the sense of =93O may I finally win the l=
ottery.=94 The idea you are translating there wants chaq.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">'a jImobtaHbe=
'. ghomuv.<br>
chaq 'opleS latlh boqIHlaH,<br>
tagha' tay'choHbejmo' Hoch.<br>
<br>
Imagine no possessions<br>
I wonder if you can<br>
No need for greed or hunger<br>
A brotherhood of man<br>
Imagine all the people<br>
Sharing all the world <br>
<br>
yIqel. pay' pagh wIghajchugh,<br>
DaHar'a'? </span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;;color:black">rut jISIv.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">This is: =93If we suddenly have nothing, do you believe it? Sometimes=
I wonder.=94</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">possibly =93If we suddenly had nothing would you believe it? Sometime=
s I wonder.=94</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">but it=92s not =93I wonder if you can.=94
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">How about: pagh wIghaj =91e=92 DaHarlaH =91e=92 vISIv.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">wa' nugh chen=
moH Hoch ghotpu'.</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&quo=
t;sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">moj is more appropriate here, or with some rewording, chen.</span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">qurbe' ghungb=
e' 'ej.
</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;;color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">qur and ghung are verbs, so the connecting conjunction goes between t=
hem.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">nIv.<br>
yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,<br>
nItebHa' yInlaH.</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">I am not a music person so I can=92t answer to whether the verse scan=
s, but I assume that is your reason for diverging from the original
wording. Remember that in English if you say =93Consider=94 the person is =
expecting the thing to consider to follow, but in Klingon the thing to cons=
ider would normally precede, so the song may be choppier than you realize.<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D">You might learn more if you attempted a closer translation of the wor=
ds, without worrying about syllable count or rhyme. I do understand
the urge to render something you like in your native language into Klingon=
.</span></p>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=3D"=
font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">  =
;
</span></span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Qov</span></div>
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