[96705] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] bom'e' vImughpu'bogh
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Sun Jul 14 22:00:53 2013
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <6d692734dbef454c8cc117f551c8f3a0@BLUPR02MB100.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:00:27 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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From: Brian Cote [mailto:coteb2@owls.southernct.edu]
Sent: July 14, 2013 12:45 AM
To: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] bom'e' vImughpu'bogh
Hello everyone. qen 'IH bomvam'e' DIS 1971 qonbogh jan lennon vImugh.
I know what you're trying to say, but the construction you are trying for in
this sentence, is not working.
You want "I recently translated this beautiful song which John Lennon wrote
in 1971."
Remember that bomvam 'IH is "this beautiful song" and 'IH bomvam is "this
song is beautiful."
You can't build a noun1 noun2 construction with a type-5 on the first noun,
so I have to interpret the first noun as independent, not part of the
subject or object. So I get ...
Recently this very song is beautiful I translate John Lennon who composed
the year 1971.
or
Recently this very song is beautiful I translate the year 1971 which John
Lennon composed.
Plus a couple of style notes:
*we don't usually transliterate proper nouns: just leave it as John Lennon.
* DIS 1971 looks really weird to me. I'm pretty sure all the examples are as
[tera'] DIS wa'SaD Hutvatlh SochmaH wa'.
<<Imagine>> 'oH, 'ach <<yIqel>> vIpong.
I like that choice very much.
lughchugh pab jItu'meH naDev vIlan. botIv 'e' vItul je.
You want to say "I put it here to find if the grammar is correct, but the
kind of "if" that means "whether" isn't -chugh.
How about lugh pab 'e' vI'olmeH naDev vIlan.
Now the song.
Imagine there's no heaven
it's easy if you try
no hell below us
above us only sky
imagine all the people
living for today
yIqel. Suto'vo'qor Dun
tu'lu'be'. ngeD. yInID.
qo' bIngDaq ghe'tor
botu'laHbe'. yIchID.
yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,
wa'leS yInchoHlaH.
It's not a close translation, but it's not ungrammatical. I don't know if
you haven't used 'e' because it doesn't scan, or because you don't know how
to use it. You should learn about it. The word 'e' not the affix -'e'.
Imagine there's no countries
it isn't hard to do
nothing to live or die for
and no religion too
imagine all the people
living life in peace
yIqel. pagh Sep, pagh qo' je.
Not a sentence.
lIQatlhbe'.
Qatlh is not a verb that tlhIH can easily be the object of, and it certainly
doesn't make sense here. Also as you are consistently addressing 2nd person
plural now, earlier imperatives with no object should be with pe-. peqel.
DaH Salay'.
vaj yIntaHmeH qoj HeghmeH
pagh meq'e' naDlu'bogh.
yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,
roj 'oH ngoQmaj'e'.
You, you may say I'm a dreamer
but I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one.
rut, rut jInajtaH. Dajatlhjaj.
-jaj translates may only in the sense of "O may I finally win the lottery."
The idea you are translating there wants chaq.
'a jImobtaHbe'. ghomuv.
chaq 'opleS latlh boqIHlaH,
tagha' tay'choHbejmo' Hoch.
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
yIqel. pay' pagh wIghajchugh,
DaHar'a'?
rut jISIv.
This is: "If we suddenly have nothing, do you believe it? Sometimes I
wonder."
possibly "If we suddenly had nothing would you believe it? Sometimes I
wonder."
but it's not "I wonder if you can."
How about: pagh wIghaj 'e' DaHarlaH 'e' vISIv.
wa' nugh chenmoH Hoch ghotpu'.
moj is more appropriate here, or with some rewording, chen.
qurbe' ghungbe' 'ej.
qur and ghung are verbs, so the connecting conjunction goes between them.
nIv.
yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,
nItebHa' yInlaH.
I am not a music person so I can't answer to whether the verse scans, but I
assume that is your reason for diverging from the original wording. Remember
that in English if you say "Consider" the person is expecting the thing to
consider to follow, but in Klingon the thing to consider would normally
precede, so the song may be choppier than you realize.
You might learn more if you attempted a closer translation of the words,
without worrying about syllable count or rhyme. I do understand the urge to
render something you like in your native language into Klingon.
- Qov
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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Brian Cote =
[mailto:coteb2@owls.southernct.edu] <br><b>Sent:</b> July 14, 2013 12:45 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> =
tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Tlhingan-hol] =
bom'e' vImughpu'bogh<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div name=3Ddivtagdefaultwrapper =
id=3Ddivtagdefaultwrapper><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Hello everyone. =
qen 'IH bomvam'e' DIS 1971 qonbogh jan lennon vImugh. </span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I know what you’re trying to say, but the construction you are =
trying for in this sentence, is not working. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>You want “I recently translated this beautiful song which John =
Lennon wrote in 1971.” <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Remember that bomvam ‘IH is “this beautiful song” =
and ‘IH bomvam is “this song is =
beautiful.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>You can’t build a noun1 noun2 construction with a type-5 on the =
first noun, so I have to interpret the first noun as independent, not =
part of the subject or object. So I get ...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Recently this very song is beautiful I translate John Lennon who =
composed the year 1971.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Recently this very song is beautiful I translate the year 1971 which =
John Lennon composed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Plus a couple of style notes: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>*<b>we don’t usually transliterate proper nouns: just leave it =
as John Lennon.<br></b>* DIS 1971 looks really weird to me. I’m =
pretty sure all the examples are as [tera’] DIS wa’SaD =
Hutvatlh SochmaH wa’.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><<Imagine&=
gt;> 'oH, 'ach <<yIqel>> vIpong. </span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I like that choice very much.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>lughchugh pab =
jItu'meH naDev vIlan. botIv 'e' vItul je.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>You want to say “I put it here to find if the grammar is =
correct, but the kind of “if” that means =
“whether” isn’t –chugh.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>How about lugh pab ‘e’ vI’olmeH naDev vIlan. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Now the song.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Imagine there's =
no heaven<br>it's easy if you try<br>no hell below us<br>above us only =
sky<br>imagine all the people<br>living for today<br><br>yIqel. =
Suto'vo'qor Dun<br>tu'lu'be'.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>ngeD. =
yInID.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>qo' bIngDaq =
ghe'tor<br>botu'laHbe'. yIchID.<br>yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,<br>wa'leS =
yInchoHlaH.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>It’s not a close translation, but it’s not ungrammatical. =
I don’t know if you haven’t used ‘e’ because it =
doesn’t scan, or because you don’t know how to use it. You =
should learn about it. The word ‘e’ not the affix =
–‘e’.<br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br>Imagine =
there's no countries<br>it isn't hard to do<br>nothing to live or die =
for<br>and no religion too<br>imagine all the people<br>living life in =
peace<br><br>yIqel. pagh Sep, pagh qo' je.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Not a sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>lIQatlhbe'. =
</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Qatlh is not a verb that tlhIH can easily be the object of, and it =
certainly doesn’t make sense here. Also as you are consistently =
addressing 2<sup>nd</sup> person plural now, earlier imperatives with no =
object should be with pe-. peqel.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>DaH =
Salay'.<br>vaj yIntaHmeH qoj HeghmeH<br>pagh meq'e' =
naDlu'bogh.<br>yIqel. vaj neHchugh Hoch,<br>roj 'oH =
ngoQmaj'e'.<br><br>You, you may say I'm a dreamer<br>but I'm not the =
only one<br>I hope someday you'll join us<br>And the world will be as =
one.<br><br>rut, rut jInajtaH. Dajatlhjaj.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>-jaj translates may only in the sense of “O may I finally win =
the lottery.” The idea you are translating there wants =
chaq.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>'a jImobtaHbe'. =
ghomuv.<br>chaq 'opleS latlh boqIHlaH,<br>tagha' tay'choHbejmo' =
Hoch.<br><br>Imagine no possessions<br>I wonder if you can<br>No need =
for greed or hunger<br>A brotherhood of man<br>Imagine all the =
people<br>Sharing all the world <br><br>yIqel. pay' pagh =
wIghajchugh,<br>DaHar'a'? </span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>rut =
jISIv.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>This is: “If we suddenly have nothing, do you believe it? =
Sometimes I wonder.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>possibly “If we suddenly had nothing would you believe it? =
Sometimes I wonder.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>but it’s not “I wonder if you can.” =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>How about: pagh wIghaj ‘e’ DaHarlaH ‘e’ =
vISIv. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>wa' nugh =
chenmoH Hoch ghotpu'.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>moj is more appropriate here, or with some rewording, =
chen.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>qurbe' ghungbe' =
'ej. </span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>qur and ghung are verbs, so the connecting conjunction goes between =
them.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>nIv.<br>yIqel. =
vaj neHchugh Hoch,<br>nItebHa' yInlaH.</span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I am not a music person so I can’t answer to whether the verse =
scans, but I assume that is your reason for diverging from the original =
wording. Remember that in English if you say “Consider” the =
person is expecting the thing to consider to follow, but in Klingon the =
thing to consider would normally precede, so the song may be choppier =
than you realize.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>You might learn more if you attempted a closer translation of the =
words, without worrying about syllable count or rhyme. I do understand =
the urge to render something you like in your native language into =
Klingon.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'> =
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Qov<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>
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