[96313] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "So what's Klingon for 'Now get your kit off?'"
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Tue May 28 16:37:01 2013
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name>,
"tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 20:35:50 +0000
In-Reply-To: <51A50D99.4030802@trimboli.name>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> I don't see any reason that "start" is necessary to make it equal
> "undress." To un-wear is to undress. To start un-wearing is to start
> undressing. To finish un-wearing is to finish undressing. {chenHa'} is
> "come apart" without a {-choH} on it.
The difference I see there is that {chen} is already a change of state (fro=
m one form (or formlessness) to another), whereas {tuQ} - unlike {tuQmoH} -=
does not.
If {chen} meant "have form", you would need a -choH.
To compare with {'ey}:
{'ey} =3D be delicious
{'eyHa'} =3D be un-delicious
{'eyHa'choH} =3D become un-delicious
> Anyway, the phrase "get your kit off" doesn't mean to START getting
> undressed, it is a command to make yourself naked.
However, to undress is to stop wearing, or to start un-wearing.
{yItuQHa'!} still strikes me as correct, though; it just focuses on the not=
wearing, rather than the undressing.
> Why would it be its own root?
>
> tuQ+moH =3D "cause to wear (some clothes)"
> tuQmoH =3D "put on (some clothes)"
It's not clear from the gloss itself, but if we assume that {tuQmoHHa'} is =
not an error, it suggests that {tuQmoH} is its own root word; otherwise, we=
would expect {tuQHa'moH}.
> Would that mean that after <tuQHa'moH> the person would be naked but
> after <tuQmoHHa'> the person would be missing a *some* piece of cloth
Not necessarily; I would see the difference more as in what the object is.
In one case, you're causing an item (or several) or not be worn.
In the other, you're casuing a person (or several) to not wear.
...although that's also a bit unclear to me, as I still don't quite underst=
and what the object is when you add -moH to a transitive verb.
paq'batlh includes the sentence {SuvwI' DameH puqloDwI' vIghojHa'moH}, sugg=
esting that the object of {ghojmoH} is the one who is made to learn.
However, it also contains {QIt ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH}, suggesting t=
hat the object is that which is learned.
It could be that the first sentence is a case of the prefix trick. Or that =
Klingon, like English ("I taught them." vs. "I taught English."), allows fo=
r both options and let people interpret using common sense rather than mech=
anical rules.
________________________________________
From: David Trimboli [david@trimboli.name]
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 22:03
To: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "So what's Klingon for 'Now get your kit off?'"
On 5/28/2013 3:47 PM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:
>> tuQ =3D wear
>> tuQHa' =3D undress (undo-wear)
>> tuQHa'choH =3D undress, resulting in a change of state (from not
>> undressing to undressing)
>
> I would not translate tuQHa' as "undress", but rather as "unwear",
> suggestion that you've worn something but no longer are.
Hence my gloss, "undo-wear."
> tuqHa'choH =3D "start unwearing", or "undress"
I don't see any reason that "start" is necessary to make it equal
"undress." To un-wear is to undress. To start un-wearing is to start
undressing. To finish un-wearing is to finish undressing. {chenHa'} is
"come apart" without a {-choH} on it.
Anyway, the phrase "get your kit off" doesn't mean to START getting
undressed, it is a command to make yourself naked.
> We also have the odd case of =ABtuQmoH=BB, "put on (clothes)" [TKD],
> which appears to be its own root verb, distinct from tuQ+moH.
> =ABtuQmoHHa'=BB =3D "take off" =97
> <http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1993-12-holqed-02-4.txt&get=
=3Dsource>
As I said, odd translations in TKD.
--
David Trimboli
http://www.trimboli.name/
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
