[96252] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Bing Translator URL
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Christopher Kidder-Mostrom)
Sat May 18 13:04:56 2013
In-Reply-To: <B4C4B787-CB13-4D4B-91B2-564FE79CFE72@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 12:04:19 -0500
From: Christopher Kidder-Mostrom <cokidder@cbtheatre.org>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org list" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
--===============8388002895183730488==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10cd312255bb04dd0117e8
--047d7b10cd312255bb04dd0117e8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have to endorse the "Capitalization helps actors" approach, given that I
work with many actors every year that have to use teleprompters in Klingon.
On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>wrote=
:
> Fractured orthographies are not the way to promote a language. There are
> real life languages with almost as many writing systems as speakers, and
> all it does is reduce communication. I have never had difficulty
> identifying consonant boundaries in Klingon, and I think changing the way
> we write to accommodate computers is as silly as those 1970s
> computer-readable fonts in English.
>
> On the pIqaD side, I stumbled across a survey result which I can't locate
> right now (mainly because when I tried to Google for it I got distracted =
by
> a really stupid Wikipedia article about "polygutteral") in which a majori=
ty
> of Klingon speakers:
> - knew pIqaD
> - had learned it relatively recently
> - didn't think it was useful because they believed very few people knew i=
t.
>
> If it weren't for the Unicode Catch-22 we'd be using it online by now. I
> have a student who refuses to use anything else, because otherwise there =
is
> crossover from his native language and other languages he knows that use
> the Latin alphabet.
>
> - Qov
>
> On 2013-05-18, at 1:55, Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com> wrote:
>
> > On 15 May 2013, at 14:51, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> The program correctly translated "Bing Translator" as {bing mughwI'},
> though I think I'd prefer to call its "translations" *{Bing Hol} or even
> better *{Bingan Hol} vs. {tlhIngan Hol})!
> >
> > A nice opportunity to point out that Okrand's 1980's "capitalization
> helps actors" orthography is past its sell-by date.
> >
> > You'd have to write *{bIng Hol}, wouldn't you?
> >
> > I remain convinced that there's no reason Klingon orthography shouldn't
> be able to use capital letters in the normal way. All that needs to be do=
ne
> is to substitute "x" for "Q" (or to use a diacritic like q=CC=82 or q=CC=
=8C) and
> introduce the use of the hyphen or extend the use of the apostrophe to
> disambiguate "gh" across morpheme boundaries.
> >
> > The most important reason to do this is the fact that q and Q are the
> same letter in terms of data treatment on computers. A nice reason is tha=
t
> it would permit nice-looking typography.
> >
> > But you'll all grumble and tell me that you like Okrand's "weird"
> orthography even though it's dysfunctional. {{:-) You always do=E2=80=A6 =
{{:-)
> >
> > Of course, if you all gave the Latin orthography up and started using
> Piqad (or pIqaD) there'd be a hope of getting that in to Unicode.
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> > http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
--=20
Christopher Kidder-Mostrom
Artistic Director, Commedia Beauregard
cokidder@cbtheatre.org
--047d7b10cd312255bb04dd0117e8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">I have to endorse the "Capitalization helps actors&qu=
ot; approach, given that I work with many actors every year that have to us=
e teleprompters in Klingon.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Robyn Stewart <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</=
a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Fractured orthographies are not the way to promote a language. There are re=
al life languages with almost as many writing systems as speakers, and all =
it does is reduce communication. I have never had difficulty identifying co=
nsonant boundaries in Klingon, and I think changing the way we write to acc=
ommodate computers is as silly as those 1970s computer-readable fonts in En=
glish.<br>
<br>
On the pIqaD side, I stumbled across a survey result which I can't loca=
te right now (mainly because when I tried to Google for it I got distracted=
by a really stupid Wikipedia article about "polygutteral") in wh=
ich a majority of Klingon speakers:<br>
- knew pIqaD<br>
- had learned it relatively recently<br>
- didn't think it was useful because they believed very few people knew=
it.<br>
<br>
If it weren't for the Unicode Catch-22 we'd be using it online by n=
ow. I have a student who refuses to use anything else, because otherwise th=
ere is crossover from his native language and other languages he knows that=
use the Latin alphabet.<br>
<br>
- Qov<br>
<br>
On 2013-05-18, at 1:55, Michael Everson <<a href=3D"mailto:everson@evert=
ype.com">everson@evertype.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> On 15 May 2013, at 14:51, Steven Boozer <<a href=3D"mailto:sboozer@=
uchicago.edu">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> The program correctly translated "Bing Translator" as {b=
ing mughwI'}, though I think I'd prefer to call its "translati=
ons" *{Bing Hol} or even better *{Bingan Hol} vs. {tlhIngan Hol})!<br>
><br>
> A nice opportunity to point out that Okrand's 1980's "cap=
italization helps actors" orthography is past its sell-by date.<br>
><br>
> You'd have to write *{bIng Hol}, wouldn't you?<br>
><br>
> I remain convinced that there's no reason Klingon orthography shou=
ldn't be able to use capital letters in the normal way. All that needs =
to be done is to substitute "x" for "Q" (or to use a di=
acritic like q=CC=82 or q=CC=8C) and introduce the use of the hyphen or ext=
end the use of the apostrophe to disambiguate "gh" across morphem=
e boundaries.<br>
><br>
> The most important reason to do this is the fact that q and Q are the =
same letter in terms of data treatment on computers. A nice reason is that =
it would permit nice-looking typography.<br>
><br>
> But you'll all grumble and tell me that you like Okrand's &quo=
t;weird" orthography even though it's dysfunctional. {{:-) You alw=
ays do=E2=80=A6 {{:-)<br>
><br>
> Of course, if you all gave the Latin orthography up and started using =
Piqad (or pIqaD) there'd be a hope of getting that in to Unicode.<br>
><br>
> Michael Everson * <a href=3D"http://www.evertype.com/" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.evertype.com/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@=
stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
> <a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-h=
ol" target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhi=
ngan-hol</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi=
.digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-=
hol</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font>Christopher Kidde=
r-Mostrom<br><font>Artisti<font>c Director, Commedia Beaure<font>gard<br><f=
ont><a href=3D"mailto:cokidder@cbtheatre.org" target=3D"_blank">cokidder@cb=
theatre.org</a><br>
<font></font><br></font></font></font></font></font>
</div>
--047d7b10cd312255bb04dd0117e8--
--===============8388002895183730488==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============8388002895183730488==--
