[96144] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] questions on {-ghach} and {-meH}
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rohan Fenwick)
Thu May 2 06:05:48 2013
From: Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 20:05:26 +1000
In-Reply-To: <CADpKWq6NMkHQxnyCOK716L-rpp9rpZ=bnG=8NJsx0=S8DoGt6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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ghItlhpu' ru'ben=2C jatlh:
> Hi everyone=2C
> I haven't tried to write anything in klingon in a long long time=2C so I
> tried tonight and I got a few questions...
qajang jIH 'e' vInIDbej.
> Although I have the impression that {-ghach} is not really recommended
> (is that true?) I tried to use it anyway...
The thing about {-ghach} is that a lot of people try to translate word-for-=
word from English using it instead of using other grammatical tools that ar=
e probably better options. It's not that common that {-ghach} is genuinely =
the best choice. For instance=2C your {bIQ watlhmoHghach patmey} does mean =
"systems of water purification"=2C but it doesn't have the idea of purpose:=
systems *for the purpose of* water purification. You could use a purpose c=
lause in {-meH} instead. {bIQ watlhmoHmeH patmey} means "systems for the pu=
rpose of purifying water"=3B it explicitly carries that idea of purpose tha=
t's lacking from the version with {-ghach}.
taH:
> {veQ boStaHghach Hemey 'oghtaH
"He/she/it is/they are devising garbage collection routes". Again=2C {veQ b=
oSmeH Hemey} would be better=2C but it's understandable as it is.
> 'ej qatlhDa'mey patmey je biQ watlhmoHghach patmey
This is where I start to have trouble. Literally=2C this means "the water p=
urification systems of the conduits and systems". Remember that the possess=
or comes first: {patmey qatlhDa'mey} would be "conduits of the systems". Do=
you mean "conduits and systems of water purification systems"?
> utlhtaH 'e' jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq vIghojta'}
{utlhtaH} is presumably a typo for {mutlhtaH}=2C so that's only minor. I ca=
n see what you were trying to express: I'm guessing "I have studied constru=
cting [the stuff you talked about in the previous clause] at engineers' aca=
demy".
Remember that {'e'} is the object and so should come after the location in =
{-Daq}. According to TKD=2C you also shouldn't use an aspect suffix on a ve=
rb that has {'e'} as its object. So: {jonwI' 'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj} "I lear=
ned that... (previous clause) at engineering school".
> {veQ boStaHghach Hemey 'ogh 'ej qatlhDa'mey patmey je biQ atlhmoHghach
> patmey mutlhmeH jonwI'pu' 'ampaSDaq jIqeqpu'}
Throughout=2C use first person subject prefixes where it's appropriate: you=
're talking about yourself=2C after all. For instance=2C {veQ boStaHghach H=
emey vI'ogh} "I invent routes of garbage collection".
> 2) Is {-meH} in the right place here? Should I put it on {'ogh}
> instead? Should I put it in both verbs?
Yes=2C it should go on both verbs. For instance:
jIghojmeH 'ej jIqeqmeH 'ampaS vIjaH.
I go to school in order that I learn and in order that I train.
Notice that I've also used subject prefixes on the {-meH}-marked verbs here=
when they modify a main verb. (When they modify a noun=2C things get a bit=
more complicated.)
> *) bonus question: Is there a commonly used expression for
> "engineering"? I can imagine something like {jonwI' Qap} would do it=2C
"It succeeds the engineer"? No=2C probably not. As often in Klingon=2C it's=
a matter of finding something that works in context. In Trek "engineering"=
is often used as the name of a place=2C a shorthand for "engineering deck"=
=2C in which case I find myself often using something like {jonwI' yaH} "en=
gineer's duty station". As an abstract subject=2C perhaps {jonwI' Sov} "eng=
ineer's knowledge" or {jonwI' paQDI'norgh} "engineer's teachings" might do.
> Thanks a lot=2C
> ru'ben
qay'be'! qaboQpu'chugh jIbel.
> PS: yep=2C I just put and apostrophe in my name=2C let's see... {ru'} be
> temporary (n)=2C
Note that {ru'} is a verb=2C not a noun.
> {ben} years ago (n)=2C ... uhmm... temporary since years
> ago? like a permanent beta? or a cracked trial version? I like it.
> lol.
"The years past are temporary." A deep philosophy. :)
QeS 'utlh
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>ghItlhpu' ru'ben=2C jatlh:<br>&g=
t=3B Hi everyone=2C<br><div>>=3B I haven't tried to write anything in kli=
ngon in a long long time=2C so I<br>>=3B tried tonight and I got a few qu=
estions...<br><br>qajang jIH 'e' vInIDbej.<br><br>>=3B Although I have th=
e impression that {-ghach} is not really recommended<br>>=3B (is that tru=
e?) I tried to use it anyway...<br><br>The thing about {-ghach} is that a l=
ot of people try to translate word-for-word from English using it instead o=
f using other grammatical tools that are probably better options. It's not =
that common that {-ghach} is genuinely the best choice. For instance=2C you=
r {bIQ watlhmoHghach patmey} does mean "systems of water purification"=2C b=
ut it doesn't have the idea of purpose: systems *for the purpose of* water =
purification. You could use a purpose clause in {-meH} instead. {bIQ watlhm=
oHmeH patmey} means "systems for the purpose of purifying water"=3B it expl=
icitly carries that idea of purpose that's lacking from the version with {-=
ghach}.<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B {veQ boStaHghach Hemey 'oghtaH<br><br>"He/she=
/it is/they are devising garbage collection routes". Again=2C {veQ boSmeH H=
emey} would be better=2C but it's understandable as it is.<br><br>>=3B 'e=
j qatlhDa'mey patmey je biQ watlhmoHghach patmey<br><br>This is where I sta=
rt to have trouble. Literally=2C this means "the water purification systems=
of the conduits and systems". Remember that the possessor comes first: {pa=
tmey qatlhDa'mey} would be "conduits of the systems". Do you mean "conduits=
and systems of water purification systems"?<br><br>>=3B utlhtaH 'e' jonw=
I'pu' 'ampaSDaq vIghojta'}<br><br>{utlhtaH} is presumably a typo for {mutlh=
taH}=2C so that's only minor. I can see what you were trying to express: I'=
m guessing "I have studied constructing [the stuff you talked about in the =
previous clause] at engineers' academy".<br><br>Remember that {'e'} is the =
object and so should come after the location in {-Daq}. According to TKD=2C=
you also shouldn't use an aspect suffix on a verb that has {'e'} as its ob=
ject. So: {jonwI' 'ampaSDaq 'e' vIghoj} "I learned that... (previous claus=
e) at engineering school".<br><br>>=3B {veQ boStaHghach Hemey 'ogh 'ej qa=
tlhDa'mey patmey je biQ atlhmoHghach<br>>=3B patmey mutlhmeH jonwI'pu' 'a=
mpaSDaq jIqeqpu'}<br><br>Throughout=2C use first person subject prefixes wh=
ere it's appropriate: you're talking about yourself=2C after all. For insta=
nce=2C {veQ boStaHghach Hemey vI'ogh} "I invent routes of garbage collectio=
n".<br><br>>=3B 2) Is {-meH} in the right place here? Should I put it on =
{'ogh}<br>>=3B instead? Should I put it in both verbs?<br><br>Yes=2C it s=
hould go on both verbs. For instance:<br><br>jIghojmeH 'ej jIqeqmeH 'ampaS =
vIjaH.<br>I go to school in order that I learn and in order that I train.<b=
r><br>Notice that I've also used subject prefixes on the {-meH}-marked verb=
s here when they modify a main verb. (When they modify a noun=2C things get=
a bit more complicated.)<br><br>>=3B *) bonus question: Is there a commo=
nly used expression for<br>>=3B "engineering"? I can imagine something li=
ke {jonwI' Qap} would do it=2C<br><br>"It succeeds the engineer"? No=2C pro=
bably not. As often in Klingon=2C it's a matter of finding something that w=
orks in context. In Trek "engineering" is often used as the name of a place=
=2C a shorthand for "engineering deck"=2C in which case I find myself often=
using something like {jonwI' yaH} "engineer's duty station". As an abstrac=
t subject=2C perhaps {jonwI' Sov} "engineer's knowledge" or {jonwI' paQDI'n=
orgh} "engineer's teachings" might do.<br><br>>=3B Thanks a lot=2C<br>>=
=3B ru'ben<br><br>qay'be'! qaboQpu'chugh jIbel.<br><br>>=3B PS: yep=2C I =
just put and apostrophe in my name=2C let's see... {ru'} be<br>>=3B tempo=
rary (n)=2C<br><br>Note that {ru'} is a verb=2C not a noun.<br><br>>=3B {=
ben} years ago (n)=2C ... uhmm... temporary since years<br>>=3B ago? like=
a permanent beta? or a cracked trial version? I like it.<br>>=3B lol.<br=
><br>"The years past are temporary." A deep philosophy. :)<br><br>QeS 'utlh=
<br></div> </div></body>
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