[96033] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Dothraki nugh vIghal
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Noah Bogart)
Thu Apr 11 17:33:17 2013
In-Reply-To: <5166AB7F.6030806@trimboli.name>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 17:32:42 -0400
From: Noah Bogart <nbtheduke@gmail.com>
Cc: Klingon List <tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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>Okrand has some kind of trans-temporal communication with Maltz, with whom
he consults in matters of language and culture. Okrand then reports his
findings to us.
>There's another alternative you apparently haven't considered: that nobody
declares themselves a word-sovereign, and that everyone study the language
provided instead of inventing it themselves. This is what the KLI has done
for decades.
So the constructed language we're studying isn't a living language, but in
fact a dead language that we're learning about piecemeal from a
third-party. A lot of your arguments make more sense now. I disagree with
that being desirable in the least, but I'm glad I know where you're coming
from.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:24 AM, David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 4/11/2013 5:45 AM, PICHLMANN Christoph wrote:
>
>> Am 08.04.2013 22:55, schrieb David Trimboli:
>>
>>> There is no International Committee on the Klingon Language, and I
>>> for one would not recognize any such committee's authority to tell
>>> me what is and is not Klingon.
>>>
>> What would be necessary for you to recognize/accept an authority to
>> tell you what is and is not klingon?
>>
>
> Okrand is the authority. His invented language has an invented context:
> Maltz the Klingon was captured by Kirk and crew, became a prisoner of the
> Federation, and dedicated himself to providing the Federation greater
> understanding of Klingons, including their language. Okrand has some kind
> of trans-temporal communication with Maltz, with whom he consults in
> matters of language and culture. Okrand then reports his findings to us.
>
> For anyone else to have this authority, Okrand must transfer this fiction.
> He must announce that someone else has gained contact with Maltz or another
> Klingon, and that new party must continue the fiction that they are getting
> their information from their Klingon informant.
>
>
> Would you accept/want a central authority at all, for that matter? If
>> not - what else? The only alternative to a central authority I see
>> would be anyone making up words and grammar as they like.
>>
>
> There's another alternative you apparently haven't considered: that nobody
> declares themselves a word-sovereign, and that everyone study the language
> provided instead of inventing it themselves. This is what the KLI has done
> for decades.
>
>
> In fact, it would be fascinating to watch the two diverge as
>>> speakers of Living Klingon accepted new words and grammar to handle
>>> things that Classical Klingon couldn't.
>>>
>> I wouldn't call that fascinating. Horrible, rather. I think that's
>> what happens with HTML right now - WHATWG is apparently determined to
>> ruin what the W3C intended. If the same would happen to klingon, I'd
>> probably stop trying to learn it.
>>
>
> Spoken language is not software; I reject this comparison. Do you think
> the world would be better off if everyone spoke the SAME language?
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.**digitalkingdom.org<Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.**org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-**hol<http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>>Okrand has some kind of trans-temporal communicat=
ion with Maltz, with=20
whom he consults in matters of language and culture. Okrand then reports
his findings to us.<br><br>>There's another alternative you apparen=
tly haven't considered: that=20
nobody declares themselves a word-sovereign, and that everyone study the
language provided instead of inventing it themselves. This is what the=20
KLI has done for decades.<br><br></div>So the constructed language we'r=
e studying isn't a living language, but in fact a dead language that we=
're learning about piecemeal from a third-party. A lot of your argument=
s make more sense now. I disagree with that being desirable in the least, b=
ut I'm glad I know where you're coming from.<br>
<div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr =
11, 2013 at 8:24 AM, David Trimboli <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto=
:david@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">david@trimboli.name</a>></span> =
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>On 4/11/2013 5:45 AM=
, PICHLMANN Christoph wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Am 08.04.2013 22:55, schrieb David Trimboli:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
There is no International Committee on the Klingon Language, and I<br>
for one would not recognize any such committee's authority to tell<br>
me what is and is not Klingon.<br>
</blockquote>
What would be necessary for you to recognize/accept an authority to<br>
tell you what is and is not klingon?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Okrand is the authority. His invented language has an invented context: Mal=
tz the Klingon was captured by Kirk and crew, became a prisoner of the Fede=
ration, and dedicated himself to providing the Federation greater understan=
ding of Klingons, including their language. Okrand has some kind of trans-t=
emporal communication with Maltz, with whom he consults in matters of langu=
age and culture. Okrand then reports his findings to us.<br>
<br>
For anyone else to have this authority, Okrand must transfer this fiction. =
He must announce that someone else has gained contact with Maltz or another=
Klingon, and that new party must continue the fiction that they are gettin=
g their information from their Klingon informant.<div>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Would you accept/want a central authority at all, for that matter? If<br>
not - what else? The only alternative to a central authority I see<br>
would be anyone making up words and grammar as they like.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
There's another alternative you apparently haven't considered: that=
nobody declares themselves a word-sovereign, and that everyone study the l=
anguage provided instead of inventing it themselves. This is what the KLI h=
as done for decades.<div>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex">
In fact, it would be fascinating to watch the two diverge as<br>
speakers of Living Klingon accepted new words and grammar to handle<br>
things that Classical Klingon couldn't.<br>
</blockquote>
I wouldn't call that fascinating. Horrible, rather. I think that's<=
br>
what happens with HTML right now - WHATWG is apparently determined to<br>
ruin what the W3C intended. If the same would happen to klingon, I'd<br=
>
probably stop trying to learn it.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Spoken language is not software; I reject this comparison. Do you think the=
world would be better off if everyone spoke the SAME language?<span><font =
color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli=
.name/</a><br></font></span><div><div>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">=
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman/listinfo/tl=
hingan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
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