[95088] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] IPA-expert question
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Wed Nov 28 12:37:38 2012
In-Reply-To: <CAJdbUgL4dOKYPxn8utx8VWwa_7VEcHKojsuXRLR4omSgZ_vHmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 14:32:41 +0100
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
--===============2210427183409620222==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0442844e6e009b04cf8e33a3
--f46d0442844e6e009b04cf8e33a3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Phonetically it's possible to have something like [p=CA=B0=C9=91w=CA=94] wi=
th the glottal
stop following the glide. Indeed, the glottal stop does come after
consonants like /n/ or /l/ in a few languages, sometimes in a slightly
reduced form (Danish is an example). The difference between analyzing <-aw>
and also <-ay> (and other similar combinations) as a diphthong rather than
a vowel plus a glide is rather phonemical. Phonetically they're almost
identical, in IPA the diphthong version would be written as [p=CA=B0=C9=91u=
=CC=AF=CA=94] and
[p=CA=B0=C9=91u=CC=AF] respectively (that's also how diphthongs are written=
, strictly).
As for the original question: I don't think length plays a crucial role
here. If one wants to stress that glottalized syllables have shorter
vowels, one might do this by adding the shortness diacritic to those,
rather than the length sign to the others, for a word like <tI'> this would
then result in [t=CA=B0=C9=AA=CC=86=CA=94], which would contrast with <tI> =
[t=CA=B0=C9=AA] and <tIy>
[t=CA=B0=C9=AAj] or perhaps even [t=CA=B0i=CB=90] or [t=CA=B0i=CB=90j]. But=
it might suffice to
distinguish them as simply [t=CA=B0=C9=AA=CA=94], [t=CA=B0=C9=AA] and [t=CA=
=B0=C9=AAj], which would be similar
to their phonemic counterparts: /ti=CA=94/, /ti/ and /tij/.
Does this help a little, Lieven?
Greetings,
- Andr=C3=A9
2012/11/27 Darin Arrick <darin.arrick@gmail.com>
> Isn't "paw" spoken as [pa=CD=A1u], with a diphthong, and "paw' " as [pa=
=CD=A1u=CA=94].
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:33 AM, Klingonteacher <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> I do understand mostly how IPA works and how to fit it to klingon, but
>> few words leave questions open:
>>
>> 1. How do I mark the difference between {paw} and {paw'}. I'm not sure i=
f
>> the glottal stop can be used like this: [paw] vs. [paw?] because we know
>> that words like these are pronounced shorter. If I mark the difference l=
ike
>> [pa:w], then I must theoretically add the [:] to every word, which doesn=
't
>> really make sense.
>>
>> 2. What about vowel-ending words?
>> is that okay: {tI} vs {tI'} =3D [tI:] vs. [tI?], or only [tI]... ?
>>
>> Lieven.
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.**digitalkingdom.org<Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdo=
m.org>
>> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.**org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-**hol<http:/=
/stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Darin Arrick - darin.arrick@gmail.com - darin.arrick@uky.edu
> Graduate Student, MA in Linguistic Theory and Typology
> University of Kentucky - Department of English - Linguistics Program
> https://linguistics.as.uky.edu/users/dar224
> http://uky.academia.edu/DarinArrick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
--f46d0442844e6e009b04cf8e33a3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">Phonetically it's possible to have something like [p=
=CA=B0=C9=91w=CA=94] with the glottal stop following the glide. Indeed, the=
glottal stop does come after consonants like /n/ or /l/ in a few languages=
, sometimes in a slightly reduced form (Danish is an example). The differen=
ce between analyzing <-aw> and also <-ay> (and other similar co=
mbinations) as a diphthong rather than a vowel plus a glide is rather phone=
mical. Phonetically they're almost identical, in IPA the diphthong vers=
ion would be written as [p=CA=B0=C9=91u=CC=AF=CA=94] and [p=CA=B0=C9=91u=CC=
=AF] respectively (that's also how diphthongs are written, strictly).<b=
r>
<br>As for the original question: I don't think length plays a crucial =
role here. If one wants to stress that glottalized syllables have shorter v=
owels, one might do this by adding the shortness diacritic to those, rather=
than the length sign to the others, for a word like <tI'> this w=
ould then result in [t=CA=B0=C9=AA=CC=86=CA=94], which would contrast with =
<tI> [t=CA=B0=C9=AA] and <tIy> [t=CA=B0=C9=AAj] or perhaps even=
[t=CA=B0i=CB=90] or [t=CA=B0i=CB=90j]. But it might suffice to distinguish=
them as simply [t=CA=B0=C9=AA=CA=94], [t=CA=B0=C9=AA] and [t=CA=B0=C9=AAj]=
, which would be similar to their phonemic counterparts: /ti=CA=94/, /ti/ a=
nd /tij/.<br>
<br>Does this help a little, Lieven?<br><br>Greetings,<br>- Andr=C3=A9<br><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/11/27 Darin Arrick <span dir=3D"ltr"><=
;<a href=3D"mailto:darin.arrick@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">darin.arrick@g=
mail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Isn't "paw" spoken as [pa=CD=
=A1u], with a diphthong, and "paw' " as [pa=CD=A1u=CA=94].<di=
v class=3D"HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"h5"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 a=
t 5:33 AM, Klingonteacher <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@=
gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I do understand mostly how IPA works and how=
to fit it to klingon, but few words leave questions open:<br>
<br>
1. How do I mark the difference between {paw} and {paw'}. I'm not s=
ure if the glottal stop can be used like this: [paw] vs. [paw?] because we =
know that words like these are pronounced shorter. If I mark the difference=
like [pa:w], then I must theoretically add the [:] to every word, which do=
esn't really make sense.<br>
<br>
2. What about vowel-ending words?<br>
is that okay: {tI} vs {tI'} =3D [tI:] vs. [tI?], or only [tI]... ?<br>
<br>
Lieven.<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">=
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman/listinfo/tl=
hingan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div></div></div><span c=
lass=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br><div>Darin Arrick - <a href=
=3D"mailto:darin.arrick@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">darin.arrick@gmail.com=
</a> - <a href=3D"mailto:darin.arrick@uky.edu" target=3D"_blank">darin.arri=
ck@uky.edu</a></div>
<div>Graduate Student, MA in Linguistic Theory and Typology</div><div>Unive=
rsity of Kentucky - Department of English - Linguistics Program</div><div><=
a href=3D"https://linguistics.as.uky.edu/users/dar224" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://linguistics.as.uky.edu/users/dar224</a></div>
<div><a href=3D"http://uky.academia.edu/DarinArrick" target=3D"_blank">http=
://uky.academia.edu/DarinArrick</a></div><div><br></div><br>
</font></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi=
.digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-=
hol</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
--f46d0442844e6e009b04cf8e33a3--
--===============2210427183409620222==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============2210427183409620222==--
