[93969] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] nuq bop bom: 'ay' cha'vatlh wa'maH Soch:
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (ghunchu'wI')
Sat Jul 7 08:28:02 2012
From: ghunchu'wI' <qunchuy@alcaco.net>
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20120706183414.0adbbde0@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 08:28:38 -0400
To: Klingon language email discussion forum <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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On Jul 6, 2012, at 9:47 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
>> > "HIja'," jatlh Hota'ro'. "yIlegh. QujvetlhvaD boqchuq ngaH Sogh, ya Sog=
h je.
>=20
> Ahh, okay problem here. One thing at a time:
>=20
> 1. ngaH's rank: ...Later the fat yeoman addressed her by rank, and vajar t=
hought the yeoman was talking to him, because ngaH's rank is "HoD."
DaH vIqaw.
> 2. ngaH Sogh and ya Sogh were both intended as possessives, "ngaH's lieute=
nant" and "the tactical officer's lieutenant." =20
Oh. They do make perfect sense that way, in hindsight. I should have been ab=
le to figure it out when {ya Sogh} wasn't working right as a title. I defini=
tely should have revisited my interpretation when {ngaH Sogh} gave me troubl=
e with both the rank and the presence of the named person. Not having {ngaH H=
oD} handy in my brain was likely a contributing factor, but I probably would=
just have pointed it out as one of several continuity problems that, as it t=
urns out, are just in my mind.
> As I wrote and proofread I didn't notice how they could be misinterpreted,=
but they obviously were misinterpreted by a competent speaker of Klingon, s=
o I need to fix them.
>=20
> Let's see: jonpIn Sogh won't work if ya Sogh didn't, so {ngaH toy'bogh So=
gh'e'}, {to' 'ay' Sogh} je? jonwI' 'ay' Sogh/ya 'ay' Sogh vay' yIchup.
You probably wouldn't have mentioned their superiors if it weren't going to b=
e important, so I can't seriously suggest {...boqchuq Soghpu'vetlh.}
Or maybe I can, if the next sentence is something like {ngaH/jonpIn toy' wa'=
'ej ya toy' latlh.}
>> rep vIghochchugh, ghaytan Qa'bar DujHomDaq Qollu'.
>=20
> tugh qechvetlh DachovlaH. bIQDaq 'eSSIm pumba'pu' 'ach Qa'bar DujDaj pawpu=
''a' Mossam?
Narratives that skip around in time give me difficulty. I'll stop trying to a=
ssign "offscreen" actions to situations based on my guesses about the parall=
el events. I'm obviously not very good at it.
>> > ratlh wa'
>> > latlh Qel, rachwI' puS je. vajar lumer SaHbogh nuvpu' mI'.
>>=20
>> **
>> naDev lugh'a' <_lu_mer>? mer mI' 'ar?
>=20
> jISovbe'. jaS vang Hol Sar. tlhIngan HolvaD chovnatlh wIghaj'a'
A question like this might be worth starting an explicit discussion in a sep=
arate thread.
>> > 'ach chay' vang.
>>=20
>> qech vIyajbej, 'ej mu'tlhegh vIlaj, 'ach chenmeH pab nIt
>> vISamlaHbe'law'. jIQubqu'taHchugh, chaq jIponHa''egh 'ej mu'tlhegh
>> vIlajHa'.
>=20
> SenglIj vIghovbe'.
ghelwI' Degh Hutlh mu'tlhegh. ghelqu'be' 'e' vIQub. ghelbejchugh, ngabchu' S=
engHeywIj.
>> > jatlhtaHvIS vajarDaq
>> > SIq 'ej bej.
>>=20
>> **
>> 'ut'a' <-Daq>? yapbe''a' <vajar SIq 'ej bej>?
>=20
> rut mumISmoH SIq chutmey. vIHotchugh 'oHDaq jISIq'a' 'ach vIcha'chugh neH '=
oH vISIq'a'?
latlh ja'chuqmeH Soj 'oH.
>> Sevmey qelchoH 'Iv? toH, chaq Qa'bar DujDaq QaptaH DaqwI' cha'DIch.
>> chaq qeng Qugh Qel.
>=20
> wej poH Dangu'chu'be'ta' 'e' vIHar. taghDI' 'ay''a' wa'maH, gharben cha' m=
ejpu' vajar. taghDI' 'ay''a'vam veSDaq pawlI' vajar. qaSqa'lI' poH nIb.
>=20
>> > ghutarmo' Hagh 'op 'ach Sagh ghu' 'e' tlhoj 'op.
>>=20
>> wa' Doch 'oH'a' 'opvam'e'? In English, "some are" if you're talking
>> about a count of things, but "some is" if you're talking about a part
>> of a thing. The difference would probably be mirrored by {'op Doch}
>> and {Doch 'op} in Klingon. Is {'op} alone singular or plural when it
>> means "some (of them)"? If it's plural, {'e' _lu_tlhoj 'op}.
>=20
> Again, dunno. I'll put a lu- on that one for you.
Don't do it "for" me. I left it as an open question.=20
-- ghunchu'wI'
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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><div><span class=3D"Apple-=
style-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875)=
; -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-com=
position-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">On Jul 6, 2012, at 9:4=
7 PM, Robyn Stewart <<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flying=
start.ca</a>> wrote:</span><br></div><div><br></div><div></div><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-sp=
an" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webki=
t-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition=
-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">> "HIja'," jatlh Hota'ro'. "=
yIlegh. QujvetlhvaD boqchuq ngaH Sogh, ya Sogh je.</span></blockquote><font c=
lass=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#005001"><br></font><span>Ahh, okay probl=
em here. One thing at a time:</span><br><span></span><br><span>1. ngaH's ran=
k: ...Later the fat yeoman addressed her by rank, and vajar thought the yeom=
an was talking to him, because ngaH's rank is "HoD." </span></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>DaH vIqaw.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><s=
pan>2. ngaH Sogh and ya Sogh were both intended as possessives, "ngaH's lieu=
tenant" and "the tactical officer's lieutenant." </span></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Oh. They do make perfect sense that way, in hindsig=
ht. I should have been able to figure it out when {ya Sogh} wasn't working r=
ight as a title. I definitely should have revisited my interpretation when {=
ngaH Sogh} gave me trouble with both the rank and the presence of the named p=
erson. Not having {ngaH HoD} handy in my brain was likely a contributing fac=
tor, but I probably would just have pointed it out as one of several continu=
ity problems that, as it turns out, are just in my mind.</div><br><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div><span>As I wrote and proofread I didn't notice how they=
could be misinterpreted, but they obviously were misinterpreted by a compet=
ent speaker of Klingon, so I need to fix them.</span><br><span></span><br><s=
pan>Let's see: jonpIn Sogh won't work if ya Sogh didn't, so {ngaH toy'=
bogh Sogh'e'}, {to' 'ay' Sogh} je? jonwI' 'ay' Sogh/ya 'ay' Sogh vay' y=
Ichup.</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You probably wouldn'=
t have mentioned their superiors if it weren't going to be important, so I c=
an't seriously suggest {...boqchuq Soghpu'vetlh.}</div><div><br></div><div>O=
r maybe I can, if the next sentence is something like {ngaH/jonpIn toy' wa' '=
ej ya toy' latlh.}</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-hi=
ghlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: r=
gba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128,=
180, 0.230469); ">rep vIghochchugh, ghaytan Qa'bar DujHomDaq Qollu'.</span>=
<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span></blockquote><span><=
/span><br><span>tugh qechvetlh DachovlaH. bIQDaq 'eSSIm pumba'pu' 'ach Qa'ba=
r DujDaj pawpu''a' Mossam?</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
Narratives that skip around in time give me difficulty. I'll stop trying to a=
ssign "offscreen" actions to situations based on my guesses about the parall=
el events. I'm obviously not very good at it.</div><div><br></div><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div><span></span><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>> ratlh=
wa'</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>> latlh Qel, r=
achwI' puS je. vajar lumer SaHbogh nuvpu' mI'.</span><br></blockquote><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<span>**</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>naDev lugh'a=
' <_lu_mer>? mer mI' 'ar?</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><spa=
n>jISovbe'. jaS vang Hol Sar. tlhIngan HolvaD chovnatlh wIghaj'a'</span><br>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>A question like this might be worth s=
tarting an explicit discussion in a separate thread.</div><br><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div><span></span><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>> 'ach chay=
' vang.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></=
blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>qech vIyajbej, 'ej mu'tlhegh vIla=
j, 'ach chenmeH pab nIt</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><sp=
an>vISamlaHbe'law'. jIQubqu'taHchugh, chaq jIponHa''egh 'ej mu'tlhegh</span>=
<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>vIlajHa'.</span><br></block=
quote><span></span><br><span>SenglIj vIghovbe'.</span><br></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>ghelwI' Degh Hutlh mu'tlhegh. ghelqu'be' 'e' vIQub. ghe=
lbejchugh, ngabchu' SengHeywIj.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><spa=
n></span><blockquote type=3D"cite">><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" styl=
e=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-compos=
ition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-c=
olor: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "> jatlhtaHvIS vajarDaq</span></blockquo=
te></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><span>> SIq 'ej bej.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>**</span><br><=
/blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>'ut'a' <-Daq>? yapbe''a' &=
lt;vajar SIq 'ej bej>?</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>rut m=
umISmoH SIq chutmey. vIHotchugh 'oHDaq jISIq'a' 'ach vIcha'chugh neH 'oH vIS=
Iq'a'?</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>latlh ja'chuqmeH Soj=
'oH.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>Sevmey qelchoH 'Iv? toH, chaq Qa'bar DujDaq QaptaH DaqwI' cha'D=
Ich.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>chaq qeng Qugh Q=
el.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>wej poH Dangu'chu'be'ta' '=
e' vIHar. taghDI' 'ay''a' wa'maH, gharben cha' mejpu' vajar. taghDI' '=
ay''a'vam veSDaq pawlI' vajar. qaSqa'lI' poH nIb.</span><br><span></span><br=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>> </span><span class=3D"Apple-style=
-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -we=
bkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composit=
ion-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">ghutarmo' Hagh 'op 'ach Sag=
h ghu' 'e' tlhoj 'op.</span></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></s=
pan><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>wa' Doch 'oH'a' 'opvam'=
e'? In English, "some are" if you're talking</span><br></blockquote><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><span>about a count of things, but "some is" if you're tal=
king about a part</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>of a=
thing. The difference would probably be mirrored by {'op Doch}</span><br></=
blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>and {Doch 'op} in Klingon. Is {'o=
p} alone singular or plural when it</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>means "some (of them)"? If it's plural, {'e' _lu_tlhoj 'op}.</s=
pan><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Again, dunno. I'll put a lu- on t=
hat one for you.</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Don't do i=
t "for" me. I left it as an open question. </div></div><div><br></div><=
div>-- ghunchu'wI'</div><div><span></span></div></body></html>=
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