[93707] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Time and Type 7 verb suffixes
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (De'vID)
Fri Jun 15 04:52:56 2012
In-Reply-To: <BAY166-W1918F69B985091ECFCEF7AAAF20@phx.gbl>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:52:39 +0200
From: "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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SuStel:
> > **Note that whenever Okrand uses -Daq <pro> to describe the location of
> > a movable object, he uses {-taH}, whereas whenever he describes the
> > location of a permanent object he uses no aspect suffix.**
QeS 'utlh:
> Not quite "whenever". Skybox card S27 has {-taH} on a permanent object:
>
> pa' 'oHtaH vaS'a''e'
> The Great Hall is there
Actually, I believe the translation is "This is where the Klingon Great
Hall is located..."
So I did my convert-to-Cantonese mental check on aspect, and I believe this
example doesn't contradict SuStel's hypothesis about moveable objects.
Trying to express "the bathroom is there" with a continuous aspect in
Cantonese didn't work for me (but see below), whereas "this is where the
Parliament Building is" works fine. The difference is that a bathroom is a
fixed location inside a building, whereas the Klingon Great Hall or a
Parliament Building *is* a moveable object within a city or country, even
though you might not think of it as one.
When I express "the Parliament Building is (continuous) here", it implies
that it used to be somewhere else, or may be somewhere else in the future.
It's not that the *building* can be moved, it's that the *label*
"Parliament Building" or "Klingon Great Hall" can be transferred from one
building to another.
Actually, come to think of it, I *can* say something like "the bathroom is
(continous) there", if a building is under construction and they have one
of those temporary toilets. But the meaning is different with and without
the suffix. With a continuous aspect marker, there's an implication that
the location isn't fixed.
Klingon doesn't have to work the same way as Cantonese, but at least the
relationship between fixed and moveable locations and continuous aspect
that SuStel proposed can actually work.
--
De'vID
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<p>SuStel:<br>
> > **Note that whenever Okrand uses -Daq <pro> to describe the=
location of<br>
> > a movable object, he uses {-taH}, whereas whenever he describes t=
he<br>
> > location of a permanent object he uses no aspect suffix.**</p>
<p>QeS 'utlh:<br>
> Not quite "whenever". Skybox card S27 has {-taH} on a perman=
ent object:<br>
><br>
> pa' 'oHtaH vaS'a''e'<br>
> The Great Hall is there</p>
<p>Actually, I believe the translation is "This is where the Klingon G=
reat Hall is located..."</p>
<p>So I did my convert-to-Cantonese mental check on aspect, and I believe t=
his example doesn't contradict SuStel's hypothesis about moveable o=
bjects.=A0 </p>
<p>Trying to express "the bathroom is there" with a continuous as=
pect in Cantonese didn't work for me (but see below), whereas "thi=
s is where the Parliament Building is" works fine.=A0 The difference i=
s that a bathroom is a fixed location inside a building, whereas the Klingo=
n Great Hall or a Parliament Building *is* a moveable object within a city =
or country, even though you might not think of it as one.=A0 </p>
<p>When I express "the Parliament Building is (continuous) here",=
it implies that it used to be somewhere else, or may be somewhere else in =
the future.=A0 It's not that the *building* can be moved, it's that=
the *label* "Parliament Building" or "Klingon Great Hall&qu=
ot; can be transferred from one building to another.</p>
<p>Actually, come to think of it, I *can* say something like "the bath=
room is (continous) there", if a building is under construction and th=
ey have one of those temporary toilets.=A0 But the meaning is different wit=
h and without the suffix.=A0 With a continuous aspect marker, there's a=
n implication that the location isn't fixed.</p>
<p>Klingon doesn't have to work the same way as Cantonese, but at least=
the relationship between fixed and moveable locations and continuous aspec=
t that SuStel proposed can actually work.</p>
<p>--<br>
De'vID</p>
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