[93546] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 125,000
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Wed Jun 6 13:15:41 2012
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20120606100835.0836cd50@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:15:20 +0200
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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We cannot actually infer from the fact that Klingon introduces a new
number-forming element for every additional zero, that it goes on like
this. Thai does a similar thing but stops at "million" (=E0=B8=A5=E0=B9=89=
=E0=B8=B2=E0=B8=99 [l=C3=A1:n]). So
there is no new word for 10 million, as one might infer from the pattern,
but one calls it simply =E0=B8=AA=E0=B8=B4=E0=B8=9A=E0=B8=A5=E0=B9=89=E0=B8=
=B2=E0=B8=99 [s=C3=ACp l=C3=A1:n] =3D "ten million". As far as I'm
aware it's even common to speak of =E0=B8=A5=E0=B9=89=E0=B8=B2=E0=B8=99=E0=
=B8=A5=E0=B9=89=E0=B8=B2=E0=B8=99 [l=C3=A1:n l=C3=A1:n] =3D "one million
million".
Anyways, no other choice in Klingon anyway, as we couldn't guess the names
for any higher numbers.
Greetings,
- Andr=C3=A9
2012/6/6 Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
> The Chinese system is a useful and productive one, but the pattern that w=
e
> see in Klingon from ten to a million is that there is a new word for ever=
y
> factor of ten, just as American English has a new word for every factor o=
f
> a thousand.
>
> I like your attention-span-saving suggestion.
>
> - Robyn
>
> At 10:02 '?????' 6/6/2012, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:
>
>> I've always just assumed that Klingon numbers work in such a way that
>> it'd be wa'bIp cha'netlh vaghSaD, but I see now that that's not strictly
>> stated in TKD. I would assumed, however, that it's sort of like the syst=
em
>> commonly used in modern-day China: You have names for 0-9, and then word=
s
>> for 10, 100, 1 000 and - unlike in English - 10 000 ("myriad"). Then,
>> instead of saying "one hundred thousands", you say "ten myriads". Likewi=
se,
>> 1 000 000 is "100 myriads", and 10 000 000 becomes "1 000 myriads". Then=
,
>> you have the next step: A y=C2=A8=C2=AC, which is ten thousand squared, =
or 100
>> million. To say "one billion", you say "10 y=C2=A8=C2=AC", and ten bill=
ion is "100
>> y=C2=A8=C2=AC", and so forth up to the zh=C2=A8=C2=A4o, which is 10 000 =
to the third power, or
>> a myriad myriad myriads. Next is j=C2=A8=C2=A9ng (10^16), g=C2=A8=C2=A1i=
(10^20), z=C2=A8=C2=AB (10^24)
>> and so forth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**
>> Chinese_numerals#Large_numbers<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nume=
rals#Large_numbers>In other words, while most of us are used to a conventio=
n which needs a new
>> name for every factor 1 000 (or, by the long count, 1 000 000), most
>> Chinese people [as I understand it] would be used to one which takes a n=
ew
>> step for every factor 10 000. Therefore, I'd guess that the next [common=
ly
>> used but unknown to us] Klingon number-forming element would be one for =
a
>> 10^2; the number which is 1 greater than 999,999,999,999 (which, similar=
to
>> you, I think would probably be called <HutbIp Hutnetlh HutSaD Hutvatlh
>> HutmaH Hut'uy' HutbIp Hutnetlh HutSaD Hutvatlh HutmaH Hut>)*. Perhaps wh=
en
>> explaining such big numbers to laymen, Klingon mathematicians refer to t=
his
>> element as <wa''uy''uy'>. ------------------------------**-----------
>> WARNING: Going off on a tangent. ------------------------------**-------=
----
>> *Another alternative, which requires more syllables but may not be as
>> demanding on your attention span, is <HutbIp'uy' Hutnetlh'uy'
>> HutSaD'uy'...>. That way, you don't have to wait twelve syllables before
>> you find out what order of magnitude you're dealing with; it'll always b=
e
>> right there in the third. One could of course imagine all sort of system=
s.
>> For example, one that squares upwards after 'uy': If the next
>> number-forming elements is called X, and 1X =3D 1'uy''uy' =3D 10^12, the=
n the
>> next one, Y, would be 1'uy'X (10^18), but 1XX (10^24), and Z would be
>> 10^48. So, if you wanted to say 24*10^42 (24 tredecillion), you'd have t=
o
>> say cha'maH'uy'XY loS'uy'XY. Dunno if that'd be practical, but you never
>> know with alien species :P ______________________________**__________
>> From: Qov [robyn@flyingstart.ca] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 17:17
>> To: De'vID jonpIn; tlhIngan-Hol Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 125,000 I se=
e
>> that TKD says "some of the number forming elements for higher numbers ar=
e
>> ..." and stops at 'uy'. Clearly there are more we don't know. That sugge=
sts
>> to me that there is one for each place up as high as Klingons need to co=
unt
>> before whatever their scientifix notation is cuts in. But just as people
>> who want to be clear when talking to an international audience avoid wor=
ds
>> like billion and say "a thousand million" or "a mllion million," I imag=
ine
>> 423,198,765,432 could be understood as loSbIp cha'netlh wejSaD wa'vatlh
>> HutmaH chorgh'uy' Soch bIp javnetlh vaghSaD loSmaH wejmaH cha'. - Qov At
>> 01:56 '?????' 6/6/2012, De'vID jonpIn wrote: >Qov: > >>> qepHomwIjDaq ja=
tlh
>> ghojwI', "chay' <125,000> jIjatlh?" > >*{wa' chorghvI' 'uy'} > >No, not
>> really, but I wish *{-vI'} generalised in this way (from {vatlhvI'}). >
>> >qurgh: > >> wa'bIp cha'netlh vaghSaD > >Qov: > > That makes sense. Is t=
hat
>> canonical, qurgh? > >Why else would we have {bIp} and {netlh}? > >--
>> >De'vID >_________________________ ______________________ >Tlhingan-hol
>> mailing list >Tlhingan-hol@stodi.**digitalkingdom.org<Tlhingan-hol@stodi=
.digitalkingdom.org>>http ://
>> stodi.digitalkingdom.org/**mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<http://stodi.di=
gitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>____________________________=
__
>> **_________________ Tlhingan-hol mailing list Tlhingan-hol@stodi.**
>> digitalkingdom.org <Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
>> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.**org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-**hol<http:/=
/stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.**digitalkingdom.org<Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom=
.org>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.**org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-**hol<http://=
stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">We cannot actually infer from the fact that Klingon introd=
uces a new number-forming element for every additional zero, that it goes o=
n like this. Thai does a similar thing but stops at "million" (=
=E0=B8=A5=E0=B9=89=E0=B8=B2=E0=B8=99 [l=C3=A1:n]). So there is no new word =
for 10 million, as one might infer from the pattern, but one calls it simpl=
y =E0=B8=AA=E0=B8=B4=E0=B8=9A=E0=B8=A5=E0=B9=89=E0=B8=B2=E0=B8=99 [s=C3=ACp=
l=C3=A1:n] =3D "ten million". As far as I'm aware it's e=
ven common to speak of =E0=B8=A5=E0=B9=89=E0=B8=B2=E0=B8=99=E0=B8=A5=E0=B9=
=89=E0=B8=B2=E0=B8=99 [l=C3=A1:n l=C3=A1:n] =3D "one million million&q=
uot;.<br>
Anyways, no other choice in Klingon anyway, as we couldn't guess the na=
mes for any higher numbers.<br><br>Greetings,<br>- Andr=C3=A9<br><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">2012/6/6 Robyn Stewart <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>=
></span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The Chinese system is a useful and productiv=
e one, but the pattern that we see in Klingon from ten to a million is that=
there is a new word for every factor of ten, just as American English has =
a new word for every factor of a thousand.<br>
<br>
I like your attention-span-saving suggestion.<br>
<br>
- Robyn<br>
<br>
At 10:02 '?????' 6/6/2012, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I've always just assumed that Klingon numbers work in such a way that i=
t'd be wa'bIp cha'netlh vaghSaD, but I see now that that's =
not strictly stated in TKD. I would assumed, however, that it's sort of=
like the system commonly used in modern-day China: You have names for 0-9,=
and then words for 10, 100, 1 000 and - unlike in English - 10 000 ("=
myriad"). Then, instead of saying "one hundred thousands", y=
ou say "ten myriads". Likewise, 1 000 000 is "100 myriads&qu=
ot;, and 10 000 000 becomes "1 000 myriads". Then, you have the n=
ext step: A y=C2=A8=C2=AC, which is ten thousand squared, or 100 million. =
=C2=A0To say "one billion", you say "10 y=C2=A8=C2=AC",=
and ten billion is "100 y=C2=A8=C2=AC", and so forth up to the z=
h=C2=A8=C2=A4o, which is 10 000 to the third power, or a myriad myriad myri=
ads. Next is j=C2=A8=C2=A9ng (10^16), g=C2=A8=C2=A1i (10^20), z=C2=A8=C2=AB=
(10^24) and so forth. <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_nume=
rals#Large_numbers" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<u></u>C=
hinese_numerals#Large_numbers</a> In other words, while most of us are used=
to a convention which needs a new name for every factor 1 000 (or, by the =
long count, 1 000 000), most Chinese people [as I understand it] would be u=
sed to one which takes a new step for every factor 10 000. Therefore, I'=
;d guess that the next [commonly used but unknown to us] Klingon number-for=
ming element would be one for a 10^2; the number which is 1 greater than 99=
9,999,999,999 (which, similar to you, I think would probably be called <=
HutbIp Hutnetlh HutSaD Hutvatlh HutmaH Hut'uy' HutbIp Hutnetlh HutS=
aD Hutvatlh HutmaH Hut>)*. Perhaps when explaining such big numbers to l=
aymen, Klingon mathematicians refer to this element as <wa''uy&#=
39;'uy'>. ------------------------------<u></u>----------- WARNI=
NG: Going off on a tangent. ------------------------------<u></u>----------=
- *Another alternative, which requires more syllables but may not be as dem=
anding on your attention span, is <HutbIp'uy' Hutnetlh'uy=
9; HutSaD'uy'...>. That way, you don't have to wait twelve s=
yllables before you find out what order of magnitude you're dealing wit=
h; it'll always be right there in the third. One could of course imagin=
e all sort of systems. For example, one that squares upwards after 'uy&=
#39;: If the next number-forming elements is called X, and 1X =3D 1'uy&=
#39;'uy' =3D 10^12, then the next one, Y, would be 1'uy'X (=
10^18), but 1XX (10^24), and Z would be 10^48. So, if you wanted to say 24*=
10^42 (24 tredecillion), you'd have to say cha'maH'uy'XY lo=
S'uy'XY. Dunno if that'd be practical, but you never know with =
alien species :P ______________________________<u></u>__________ From: Qov =
[<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstar=
t.ca</a>] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 17:17 To: De'vID jonpIn; tlhIn=
gan-Hol Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 125,000 I see that TKD says "some =
of the number forming elements for higher numbers are ..." and stops a=
t 'uy'. Clearly there are more we don't know. That suggests to =
me that there is one for each place up as high as Klingons need to count be=
fore whatever their scientifix notation is cuts in. But just as people who =
want to be clear when talking to an international audience avoid words like=
billion and say "a thousand million" or "a mllion million,&=
quot; =C2=A0I imagine 423,198,765,432 could be understood as loSbIp cha'=
;netlh wejSaD wa'vatlh HutmaH chorgh'uy' Soch bIp javnetlh vagh=
SaD loSmaH wejmaH cha'. - Qov At 01:56 '?????' 6/6/2012, De'=
;vID jonpIn wrote: >Qov: > >>> qepHomwIjDaq jatlh ghojwI'=
;, "chay' <125,000> jIjatlh?" > >*{wa' chorgh=
vI' 'uy'} > >No, not really, but I wish *{-vI'} gener=
alised in this way (from {vatlhvI'}). > >qurgh: > >> wa&=
#39;bIp cha'netlh vaghSaD > >Qov: > > That makes sense. Is =
that canonical, qurgh? > >Why else would we have {bIp} and {netlh}? &=
gt; >-- >De'vID >_________________________ ___________________=
___ >Tlhingan-hol mailing list ><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.=
digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalking=
dom.org</a> >http ://<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/=
listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">stodi.digitalkingdom.org/<u></u>ma=
ilman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a> ______________________________<u></u>______=
___________ Tlhingan-hol mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.=
digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalking=
dom.org</a> <a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlh=
ingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman=
/listinfo/tlhingan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</blockquote><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">=
Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman/listinfo/tl=
hingan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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