[93066] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Question regarding purpose clauses
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI'nuv)
Mon Apr 30 13:37:23 2012
From: lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:37:01 -0400
In-Reply-To: <F52986192E9FE346B0B7EF3D6F98E87711C20621@EXDB3.ug.kth.se>
To: tlhIngan-Hol discussion forum <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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I don't think of the world in terms of "right" and "wrong". I see some =
sentences as better and others as worse. Why deal in black and white =
when the world not only has shades of grey, but COLORS?
I don't care whether the sentence is right or wrong. I care about =
whether or not it could be improved. It's quite possible to make a lot =
of ugly, valid sentences that confuse as much as they communicate. My =
goal is to come up with something that expresses an idea clearly, and =
with that motive, the idea of stretching grammatical constructions out =
to their obscure, opaque extremes is not interesting.
Klingon is at its best when it is simple, straight-forward, efficient =
and nuanced. A lot of valid Klingon sentences can be none of these =
things.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
On Apr 30, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:
>> Some of the worst canon in existence is in movies because of the =
editing process.
>=20
> Quite true, though I think ST:V is for the most part an exception to =
this rule (at least when it comes to . Still, it's certainly the case =
that with the way movies are made, it's difficult to say which lines are =
well thought through and which ones aren't.
>=20
>> And then there's {taH pagh taHbe'}. No thought went into that at all. =
He's on the set
>> with a handful of prepared translated lines from MacBeth and other =
very
>> Klingon-culturally-interesting scenes in Shakespeare, and the =
director turned to him
>> and said, "Gimme 'To be or not to be.'" The actors were ready. The =
cameras were
>> ready. Okrand knew he had a problem he didn't have time to solve =
well, so he
>> improvised.
>=20
> Slightly worse, even: He did apparently put some thought into <yIn =
pagh yInbe'>, but when he told that to Christopher Plummer, he thought =
it sounded too tame and asked him to come up with something else.
>=20
>> It is challenging to fathom how "we hit it" is the purpose of "it is =
difficult". Unless this
>> is an unexplained idiom, it's a piss poor excuse for a sentence =
conveying meaning.
>> Better would have been {Qatlh'a' wIqIpmeH Qu'?}. That would be hard =
to misinterpret.
>=20
> Difficult to fathom if one is convinced that the main clause of a =
{P-meH M} construction must the means by which P is achieved, yes. Thus, =
there are really three conclusions, the first two of which I give the =
most credence:
>=20
> 1. -meH has a wider range of use than TKD puts on.
> 2. This sentence is wrong.
> 3. It's some weird exception to the rules.
>=20
>> ... but then people are saying these things, and people say poorly =
expressed things
>> all the time. The characters in question were back-woods Klingons =
with self-esteem
>> issues. There is no indication they were particularly well educated =
or that they spoke
>> particularly standard Klingon. They are not Klingon language =
instructors. They are
>> guys, bored, perhaps a little stupid, and aimlessly wandering around =
space looking
>> for trouble. Do you really want to learn to talk like they do?
>=20
> Kind of, yeah. In fact, Klaa and Vixis are probably the only on-screen =
Klingons that I'd like to talk like; their performance is probably the =
only redeeming factor of that movie :P
>=20
>> I probably understand how to say things in Klingon better than =
Okrand. That doesn't
>> mean that I have any intentions of taking his authority away from =
him. He created the
>> language. I have enormous respect for him for that. That respect =
won't stop me from
>> rolling my eyes when I see what he does with the language from time =
to time.
>=20
> Indeed, there's certainly no reason one can't do both: Marc readily =
admits that there are many who are more fluent than he.
> I guess the make/break factor here really is how weird one thinks it =
would be if sentences like {wIqIpmeH Qatlh'a'} could mean something like =
"Difficult to hit?":
>=20
> Many seem to think that it's in line with what we know about -meH.
> I think it's a deviation from most of what we know about -meH, and =
lean towards the conclusion that -meH has a wider range of uses than we =
would otherwise have expected.
> You seem to agree that it's a deviation from most of what we know =
about -meH, but instead lean towards the conclusion that sentences like =
this are wrong.
>=20
>> Either I missed something or the more complete transcript was not =
included.
>=20
> 'Twas, but it wasn't all in one place:
> =
http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-01-18b-news.txt&get=3Dsour=
ce
> Basically, the original poster asks if {qaSuchmeH jIpaSqu'} is an okay =
way to say "I was too late to visit you". Marc responds that it means =
something more like that the visit did or will take place (though later, =
perhaps, than desired), and provides suggestions on how to say what the =
original poster wanted to say.
>=20
>> There are definitely exceptions to the generality I'm about to make, =
but someone
>> other than me once noted that Klingonists tended to fall into three =
groups:
>=20
> Guess I'm somewhere between groups 2 and 3: I'm an engineer, not a =
linguist, but I do enjoy discussing grammar ad nauseam.
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>I don't think of the world in terms of "right" and "wrong". I see =
some sentences as better and others as worse. Why deal in black and =
white when the world not only has shades of grey, but =
COLORS?</div><div><br></div><div>I don't care whether the sentence is =
right or wrong. I care about whether or not it could be improved. It's =
quite possible to make a lot of ugly, valid sentences that confuse as =
much as they communicate. My goal is to come up with something that =
expresses an idea clearly, and with that motive, the idea of stretching =
grammatical constructions out to their obscure, opaque extremes is not =
interesting.</div><div><br></div><div>Klingon is at its best when it is =
simple, straight-forward, efficient and nuanced. A lot of valid Klingon =
sentences can be none of these things.</div><br><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; =
"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Apr 30, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Felix Malmenbeck =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">Some of the worst canon in =
existence is in movies because of the editing =
process.<br></blockquote><br>Quite true, though I think ST:V is for the =
most part an exception to this rule (at least when it comes to . Still, =
it's certainly the case that with the way movies are made, it's =
difficult to say which lines are well thought through and which ones =
aren't.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">And then there's {taH pagh =
taHbe'}. No thought went into that at all. He's on the =
set<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">with a handful of prepared =
translated lines from MacBeth and other very<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Klingon-culturally-interesting scenes in Shakespeare, and =
the director turned to him<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">and =
said, "Gimme 'To be or not to be.'" The actors were ready. The cameras =
were<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">ready. Okrand knew he had =
a problem he didn't have time to solve well, so =
he<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">improvised.<br></blockquote><br>Slightly worse, even: He =
did apparently put some thought into <yIn pagh yInbe'>, but when =
he told that to Christopher Plummer, he thought it sounded too tame and =
asked him to come up with something else.<br><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">It is challenging to fathom how "we hit it" is the purpose =
of "it is difficult". Unless this<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">is an unexplained idiom, it's a piss poor excuse for a =
sentence conveying meaning.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Better would have been {Qatlh'a' wIqIpmeH Qu'?}. That =
would be hard to misinterpret.<br></blockquote><br>Difficult to fathom =
if one is convinced that the main clause of a {P-meH M} construction =
must the means by which P is achieved, yes. Thus, there are really three =
conclusions, the first two of which I give the most credence:<br><br>1. =
-meH has a wider range of use than TKD puts on.<br>2. This sentence is =
wrong.<br>3. It's some weird exception to the rules.<br><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">... but then people are saying these things, and people =
say poorly expressed things<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">all =
the time. The characters in question were back-woods Klingons with =
self-esteem<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">issues. There is =
no indication they were particularly well educated or that they =
spoke<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">particularly standard =
Klingon. They are not Klingon language instructors. They =
are<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">guys, bored, perhaps a =
little stupid, and aimlessly wandering around space =
looking<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">for trouble. Do you =
really want to learn to talk like they do?<br></blockquote><br>Kind of, =
yeah. In fact, Klaa and Vixis are probably the only on-screen Klingons =
that I'd like to talk like; their performance is probably the only =
redeeming factor of that movie :P<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">I =
probably understand how to say things in Klingon better than Okrand. =
That doesn't<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">mean that I have =
any intentions of taking his authority away from him. He created =
the<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">language. I have enormous =
respect for him for that. That respect won't stop me =
from<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">rolling my eyes when I =
see what he does with the language from time to =
time.<br></blockquote><br>Indeed, there's certainly no reason one can't =
do both: Marc readily admits that there are many who are more fluent =
than he.<br>I guess the make/break factor here really is how weird one =
thinks it would be if sentences like {wIqIpmeH Qatlh'a'} could mean =
something like "Difficult to hit?":<br><br>Many seem to think that it's =
in line with what we know about -meH.<br>I think it's a deviation from =
most of what we know about -meH, and lean towards the conclusion that =
-meH has a wider range of uses than we would otherwise have =
expected.<br>You seem to agree that it's a deviation from most of what =
we know about -meH, but instead lean towards the conclusion that =
sentences like this are wrong.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Either I =
missed something or the more complete transcript was not =
included.<br></blockquote><br>'Twas, but it wasn't all in one =
place:<br><a =
href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-01-18b-news.txt&am=
p;get=3Dsource">http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1998-01-18b-new=
s.txt&get=3Dsource</a><br>Basically, the original poster asks if =
{qaSuchmeH jIpaSqu'} is an okay way to say "I was too late to visit =
you". Marc responds that it means something more like that the visit did =
or will take place (though later, perhaps, than desired), and provides =
suggestions on how to say what the original poster wanted to =
say.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">There are definitely exceptions to =
the generality I'm about to make, but =
someone<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">other than me once =
noted that Klingonists tended to fall into three =
groups:<br></blockquote><br>Guess I'm somewhere between groups 2 and 3: =
I'm an engineer, not a linguist, but I do enjoy discussing grammar ad =
nauseam.</div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=
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