[92420] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation Project
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI'nuv)
Sun Mar 4 09:05:32 2012
From: lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <F52986192E9FE346B0B7EF3D6F98E87711C1AD9E@EXDB3.ug.kth.se>
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 09:05:00 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Most of us have made our own personal dictionaries. I highly recommend recor=
ding the source of each word as consistently as you record the spelling and d=
efinition. It is as important or more so because we all make mistakes in our=
dictionaries (including Okrand and his publishers), and without recording t=
he source of each word, you can never go back and check if there appears to h=
ave been some mistake.=20
Sent from my iPod
On Mar 2, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
> > To those who want to make lists, I say make them all you want.
> >
> > Send me copies.
> >
> > Just don't be surprised if no one else wants to use it.
>=20
> The problem I have with that is that it's not all that helpful when the go=
al is to communicate clearly with a general public.
>=20
> One last argument before I withdraw my suggestion:
>=20
> The Facebook weekdays will probably be voted on by about 5-10 people.
> The first TEDtalk translated into Klingon contains many neologisms only ap=
proved by two people.
> The Klingon translation of MineCraft has one active translator, and two-th=
ree who contribute from time to time.
> Several lists of neologisms exist on the net, but most of them - while goo=
d and at times quite useful - are compiled by a single person, or maybe two p=
eople.
>=20
> People running these projects may reach out to people in various ways for s=
uggestions, but the feedback they receive will only reflect the views of tho=
se active in that particular forum at that particular forum.
>=20
> What I'd like is a way to avoid that; to try to devise a system that invol=
ves as large a portion of the jatlhwI' community as possible, so that the li=
st actually reflects the speaker base.
>=20
>=20
> I rather like Andr=C3=A9's idea; though I'm too lazy to have done any real=
work on it, I've sometimes imagined having a searchable corpus where you ca=
n filter by categories such as "Okrandian canon", "Published KLI work", "Pub=
lished Star Trek work", "Used on-screen" and "Used in casual conversation by=
jatlhwI'".
>=20
> I think both models could co-exist, and I think both could have separate u=
ses.
> My fear for a wiki/GoogleDoc is that it will become like ghItlh'a', with o=
nly a few remotely active users and rather little interaction in-between the=
m (which, in my experience using wikis and Google Docs in the workplace, is a=
very common problem). If there were a way to combat that problem (which I'm=
not ruling out), it may serve the purpose I've imagined for my model.
>=20
> [Not saying that my model magically solves this problem; I've had brief vi=
sions of a first draft of a suggestion for a memo to guide the process of wr=
iting a memo for developing this system, and on the list of "Big problems in=
need of tackling" there was the point "The process needs to be dry enough t=
o be taken seriously, yet engaging enough to encourage widespread participat=
ion at various levels."
> Though I still don't know how to resolve that problem*, I think it'd be ea=
sier to get a large number of people involved if the end product had some so=
rt of "semi-official" status; "I went to a workshop during a local qepHom / t=
ook part in a forum discussion / voted in a poll, and my ideas contributed t=
o an official KLI document."
> The details really aren't that important, though (which is part of the rea=
son I've only spoken in fairly broad terms); if another system gets people t=
o take an active role in affecting their language, then I'm all for it.]
>=20
> That being said, I've used up all of my arguments, and if the views of tho=
se involved in this conversation are even remotely indicative of the jatlhwI=
' community as a whole, then I freely admit that my model would be impossibl=
e to implement (at least at this point in time), since consensus lies at its=
very core.
>=20
> Sleeping pill really starting to bite in. Good night, 'IHwI'pu' :)
>=20
>=20
> *I imagine you'd ground it in an online forum with flashy voting tools, co=
mplemented by "in the flesh" workshops at qepmey, the election of a preparat=
ory committee that would present their report (preferably both at a physical=
meeting and online) for feedback before online voting (with some sort of mi=
nimum number of votes required before it passes.
> Not a small bill to fit, I know, which is why I'm curious if anything like=
this would have enough support to be worth the effort.
>=20
> From: Andr=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller [esperantist@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 23:08
> To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation Projec=
t [FTP]: weekdays)
>=20
> I believe the the 21st century computer term list that 'anan naHQun mentio=
ned might refer to the humble (and outdated) list in my private Wikipedia us=
er space:
>=20
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:N-true/List_of_Klingon_computer_terms
>=20
> I compiled this little list when I was attempting to translate Skype (or s=
ome other program) and Wikia (back then still on Wikipedia) into Klingon and=
also when I began trying to translate Facebook, I believe. At least, back t=
han (must've been 3 years ago, by now!) I at least referred to this list eve=
r so often. Seems I have compiled the list in 2007.
>=20
> My personal opinion is indeed that we should not vote on newly coined word=
s, but that it could =E2=80=93 and I'm repeating myself and others here =E2=80=
=93 be helpful to at least compile a few list (or one single list) with word=
s that some proficient speakers or writers coined, including words from work=
s such as Hamlet, ghIlghameS, the Daodejing and such.
> These lists should have a big disclaimer, a kind of warning that these ter=
ms are mere suggestions, or not even that... just, that they're a compilatio=
n to show who has used what expression for which non-Klingon term where. Suc=
h a list could and should have annotations which might contain warnings why a=
word might not be fitting. I always used "Hogh jaj wa'" for Monday, but a l=
ist would have many other proposals for this, each with a note or linked exp=
lanation, noting that not the whole world starts counting the week on Monday=
, or simple something like "could be mistaken as 1st [of March]" for instanc=
e... other proposals would then be "jaj wa'", "jaj cha'", "jaj wa'DIch", may=
be even something like "monDay" or "manDey" but maybe not simple "Monday" (o=
r Montag, lundi etc.).
> Steven sometimes includes information like this, mentioning that people on=
the list used this-and-that word before for referring to, say, "computer vi=
rus" or something like that.
>=20
> This could be a Wiki open (or GoogleDoc? I'm not too familiar with that) t=
o everyone, not only members on the list. People who dislike these things co=
uld ignore them and use their own standards. Because of the disclaimer and t=
he various possible translation given, no one actually has the right to say "=
But we agreed that Monday is jaj wa'!"
>=20
> I'd see such a list as a mere help for those of us who translate or compos=
e texts in Klingon and sometimes struggle for words and concepts. And if I h=
ad a list with a note like "used in 'Hamlet'" or "suggested by De'vID jonpIn=
" I'd rather pick one of those, if I agree with its logic, than making up my=
own words. I might have had a completely different idea but then concluded t=
hat someone had choosen a much better wording before. Also, if I disagree wi=
th someone's suggestion, I could add a little note to the entry in the Wiki,=
saying that the word is ambiguous, too vague or I simply add my own term, a=
dding "coined by Andr=C3=A9" (or maybe "used by Andr=C3=A9") and others then=
might do the same... agree, that my idea is better or write a comment there=
or on the discussion page that my suggestions is totally off, or do nothing=
but decide for an alternative.
>=20
> These things are all discussable and wouldn't seem like elitism or per se.=
I see the danger that such a list might become a "This is how you say it." l=
ist, but not necessarily so. That list would have not one single, but severa=
l possible translations for the English lemmata, annotations that lets the r=
eader see the "dangers" and the disclaimer could be formulated wisely.
> I'm sure someone has suggested these things before, but I think the useful=
ness would outweigh the dangers and "elitism" by far, because it would be ob=
vious to every reader that these are mere suggestions which you are free to f=
ollow, ignore, annotate or enlarge.
>=20
> Greetings,
> - Andr=C3=A9
>=20
>=20
> 2012/3/2 David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name>
> On 3/2/2012 4:13 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. PKT wrote:
> But if I were to suggest writing these words down on a list, we'd
> have the same argument that's going on now.
>=20
> Right. It's the difference between "Aha, I see what you did there!" and "T=
his is how you say it." And no matter how unofficial you claim a list is, if=
it's endorsed by the list or by the KLI, it WILL become "This is how you sa=
y it."
>=20
> --=20
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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charset=utf-8
<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Most of us have made our o=
wn personal dictionaries. I highly recommend recording the source of each wo=
rd as consistently as you record the spelling and definition. It is as impor=
tant or more so because we all make mistakes in our dictionaries (including O=
krand and his publishers), and without recording the source of each word, yo=
u can never go back and check if there appears to have been some mistake.&nb=
sp;<br><br><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highli=
ght-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(=
175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180=
, 0.230469); ">Sent from my iPod</span><br></div></div><div><br>On Mar 2, 20=
12, at 6:41 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se">felixm=
@kth.se</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
v>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-12=
52">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 1=
0pt;">> To those who want to make lists, I say make them all you want.<br=
>
><br>
> Send me copies.<br>
><br>
> Just don't be surprised if no one else wants to use it.<br>
<br>
The problem I have with that is that it's not all that helpful when the goal=
is to communicate clearly with a general public.<br>
<br>
One last argument before I withdraw my suggestion:<br>
<br>
The Facebook weekdays will probably be voted on by about 5-10 people.<br>
The first TEDtalk translated into Klingon contains many neologisms only appr=
oved by two people.<br>
The Klingon translation of MineCraft has one active translator, and two-thre=
e who contribute from time to time.<br>
Several lists of neologisms exist on the net, but most of them - while good a=
nd at times quite useful - are compiled by a single person, or maybe two peo=
ple.<br>
<br>
People running these projects may reach out to people in various ways for su=
ggestions, but the feedback they receive will only reflect the views of thos=
e active in that particular forum at that particular forum.<br>
<br>
What I'd like is a way to avoid that; to try to devise a system that involve=
s as large a portion of the jatlhwI' community as possible, so that the list=
actually reflects the speaker base.<br>
<br>
<br>
I rather like Andr=C3=A9's idea; though I'm too lazy to have done any real w=
ork on it, I've sometimes imagined having a searchable corpus where you can f=
ilter by categories such as "Okrandian canon", "Published KLI work", "Publis=
hed Star Trek work", "Used on-screen"
and "Used in casual conversation by jatlhwI'".<br>
<br>
I think both models could co-exist, and I think both could have separate use=
s.<br>
My fear for a wiki/GoogleDoc is that it will become like ghItlh'a', with onl=
y a few remotely active users and rather little interaction in-between them (=
which, in my experience using wikis and Google Docs in the workplace, is a v=
ery common problem). If there
were a way to combat that problem (which I'm not ruling out), it may serve t=
he purpose I've imagined for my model.<br>
<br>
[Not saying that my model magically solves this problem; I've had brief visi=
ons of a first draft of a suggestion for a memo to guide the process of writ=
ing a memo for developing this system, and on the list of "Big problems in n=
eed of tackling" there was the
point "The process needs to be dry enough to be taken seriously, yet engagi=
ng enough to encourage widespread participation at various levels."<br>
Though I still don't know how to resolve that problem*, I think it'd be easi=
er to get a large number of people involved if the end product had some sort=
of "semi-official" status; "I went to a workshop during a local qepHom / to=
ok part in a forum discussion
/ voted in a poll, and my ideas contributed to an official KLI document."<b=
r>
The details really aren't that important, though (which is part of the reaso=
n I've only spoken in fairly broad terms); if another system gets people to t=
ake an active role in affecting their language, then I'm all for it.]<br>
<br>
That being said, I've used up all of my arguments, and if the views of those=
involved in this conversation are even remotely indicative of the jatlhwI' c=
ommunity as a whole, then I freely admit that my model would be impossible t=
o implement (at least at this
point in time), since consensus lies at its very core.<br>
<br>
Sleeping pill really starting to bite in. Good night, 'IHwI'pu' :)<br>
<br>
<br>
*I imagine you'd ground it in an online forum with flashy voting tools, comp=
lemented by "in the flesh" workshops at qepmey, the election of a preparator=
y committee that would present their report (preferably both at a physical m=
eeting and online) for feedback
before online voting (with some sort of minimum number of votes required be=
fore it passes.<br>
Not a small bill to fit, I know, which is why I'm curious if anything like t=
his would have enough support to be worth the effort.<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 1=
6px;">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;" id=3D"divRpF575016"><font color=3D"#000000" f=
ace=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> Andr=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller [<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:esperantist@gmail.com">esperantist@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 02, 2012 23:08<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><=
br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation P=
roject [FTP]: weekdays)<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I believe the the 21st century computer term list that 'ana=
n naHQun mentioned might refer to the humble (and outdated) list in my priva=
te Wikipedia user space:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:N-true/List_of_Klingon_computer=
_terms" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:N-true/List_of_K=
lingon_computer_terms</a><br>
<br>
I compiled this little list when I was attempting to translate Skype (or som=
e other program) and Wikia (back then still on Wikipedia) into Klingon and a=
lso when I began trying to translate Facebook, I believe. At least, back tha=
n (must've been 3 years ago,
by now!) I at least referred to this list ever so often. Seems I have compi=
led the list in 2007.<br>
<br>
My personal opinion is indeed that we should not vote on newly coined words,=
but that it could =E2=80=93 and I'm repeating myself and others here =E2=80=
=93 be helpful to at least compile a few list (or one single list) with word=
s that some proficient speakers or writers coined,
including words from works such as Hamlet, ghIlghameS, the Daodejing and su=
ch.<br>
These lists should have a big disclaimer, a kind of warning that these terms=
are mere suggestions, or not even that... just, that they're a compilation t=
o show who has used what expression for which non-Klingon term where. Such a=
list could and should have
annotations which might contain warnings why a word might not be fitting. I=
always used "Hogh jaj wa'" for Monday, but a list would have many other pro=
posals for this, each with a note or linked explanation, noting that not the=
whole world starts counting
the week on Monday, or simple something like "could be mistaken as 1st [of M=
arch]" for instance... other proposals would then be "jaj wa'", "jaj cha'", "=
jaj wa'DIch", maybe even something like "monDay" or "manDey" but maybe not s=
imple "Monday" (or Montag,
lundi etc.).<br>
Steven sometimes includes information like this, mentioning that people on t=
he list used this-and-that word before for referring to, say, "computer viru=
s" or something like that.
<br>
<br>
This could be a Wiki open (or GoogleDoc? I'm not too familiar with that) to e=
veryone, not only members on the list. People who dislike these things could=
ignore them and use their own standards. Because of the disclaimer and the v=
arious possible translation
given, no one actually has the right to say "But we agreed that Monday is j=
aj wa'!"<br>
<br>
I'd see such a list as a mere help for those of us who translate or compose t=
exts in Klingon and sometimes struggle for words and concepts. And if I had a=
list with a note like "used in 'Hamlet'" or "suggested by De'vID jonpIn" I'=
d rather pick one of those,
if I agree with its logic, than making up my own words. I might have had a c=
ompletely different idea but then concluded that someone had choosen a much b=
etter wording before. Also, if I disagree with someone's suggestion, I could=
add a little note to the entry
in the Wiki, saying that the word is ambiguous, too vague or I simply add m=
y own term, adding "coined by Andr=C3=A9" (or maybe "used by Andr=C3=A9") an=
d others then might do the same... agree, that my idea is better or write a c=
omment there or on the discussion page
that my suggestions is totally off, or do nothing but decide for an alterna=
tive.<br>
<br>
These things are all discussable and wouldn't seem like elitism or per se. I=
see the danger that such a list might become a "This is how you say it." li=
st, but not necessarily so. That list would have not one single, but several=
possible translations for the
English lemmata, annotations that lets the reader see the "dangers" and the=
disclaimer could be formulated wisely.<br>
I'm sure someone has suggested these things before, but I think the usefulne=
ss would outweigh the dangers and "elitism" by far, because it would be obvi=
ous to every reader that these are mere suggestions which you are free to fo=
llow, ignore, annotate or enlarge.<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
- Andr=C3=A9<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/3/2 David Trimboli <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:david@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">david@trimboli.name</a>=
></span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On 3/2/2012 4:13 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. PKT wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
But if I were to suggest writing these words down on a list, we'd<br>
have the same argument that's going on now.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Right. It's the difference between "Aha, I see what you did there!" and "Thi=
s is how you say it." And no matter how unofficial you claim a list is, if i=
t's endorsed by the list or by the KLI, it WILL become "This is how you say i=
t."<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli.=
name/</a></font></span>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">T=
lhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman/listinfo/tlhi=
ngan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span>=
<br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-=
hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"http://stodi.dig=
italkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></h=
tml>=
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