daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (David Trimboli)
Fri Feb 10 17:16:31 2012
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:16:08 -0500
From: David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name>
To: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
In-Reply-To: <CAFK8js1X8ng7E3-zcfrL--JXyd8+KOH3y3zqZGi+MfE3BGt6Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
On 2/10/2012 4:18 PM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Qov<robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
>>> If {-taH} here is intended to describe a continual or habitual action
>>> rather than a continuous one, I think it's better left off.
>>
>> If SuStel is reading I'd be interested in his take on this, wrt to his
>> "every verb needs an aspect suffix" idea.
>
> I don't intend to put words in his mouth, but what I understand of his
> position is that verbs lacking a type 7 suffix are best understood as
> describing situations rather than events or processes. However, the
> distinction he makes between "perfective" and "perfected" is one I do
> not understand completely, nor do I see it as important to my use of
> the language.
I haven't been reading, but I saw my name...
TKD says that a lack of type 7 suffix means that the action is not one =
of the things that type 7 suffixes describe. It doesn't mean that you =
just didn't mention something=97if the suffix is true, it's *required*. I =
can't use {jIQong} to say "I was asleep" because this idea includes a =
continuous aspect. It must be {jIQongtaH}.
Klingon also has a *perfective* aspect. Perfective is where you view an =
action as a completed whole. {jIQongpu'} "I slept: I went to sleep, =
slept for a while, then woke up."
What Klingon does NOT have is a built-in *perfect* tense/aspect. Perfect =
"tense" indicates that something is currently in a state or condition =
that resulted from an action in the past. "I have eaten" means that I'm =
full now because I ate earlier. This is different from "I ate," which is =
perfective and means "I finished off a meal" (you wouldn't say "I ate" =
if you just took one bite of an apple).
So if you say {jIQongpu'}, it doesn't mean that at some time prior to =
now I experienced sleep; it means that, without regard to whether it was =
in the past, present, or future, I experienced a complete session of =
sleep, all the way to waking up. Sleeping was performed and finished. If =
you want to say "I have slept" (i.e., prior sleep means I'm not tired =
now) in Klingon, you can approximate it with perfective and a time =
context: {wa' rep ret jIQongpu'} "One hour ago I experienced a complete =
session of sleep."
Verbs without a type 7 suffix therefore indicate a *propensity* to do =
something. {Hoch jaj jIQong} "I sleep every day"; {qagh Sopbe'} "He =
doesn't (ever) eat gagh." You might do it habitually, like {reH jIbom} =
"I always sing," or occasionally {rut 'awje' vItlhutlh} "I sometimes =
drink root beer," or it might be your regular condition {jIHoS} "I am =
strong."
jIQuch - I am a happy kind of person
jIQuchtaH - I am happy right now
jIQuchpu' - I experienced a period of happiness that ended
To recap:
Traditional grammarian wisdom says that the type 7 suffixes indicate =
soemthing that happened prior to the time context, but that's "perfect =
tense," and TKD names, describes, and illustrates "perfective aspect," =
which is a completed event viewed as a whole without any regard to the =
time in which it occurs. The grammarians have been wrong for a long time.
Traditional wisdom also allows verbs to go without type 7 suffixes at =
all and still mean things that are continuous or perfective=97that they're =
just not expressed. However, TKD states that verbs without type 7 =
suffixes refer to events that are non-continuous and non-perfective. =
That means they are verbs that indicate propensity only.
>> yo' 'aj SuchtaH Sutmey tuQbe'bogh nga'chuqqangqu'law'wI'vam'e'[113].
>
> If {-taH} here is intended to describe a continual or habitual action
> rather than a continuous one, I think it's better left off.
I think it *must* be left off if that is the case. If you mean =
"regularly visit" or "occasionally visit" or "always visit," leave off =
{-taH} and use an adverbial. If you mean "is visiting for a while," use =
{-taH}. If you mean "is visiting until done visiting," use {-lI'}.
-- =
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/
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