daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Lieven Litaer)
Sat Jan 21 08:21:37 2012
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2012 14:21:16 +0100
From: Lieven Litaer <lieven.litaer@web.de>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <BAY166-W32092A9621659AE879950FAA840@phx.gbl>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
After re-reading this my own message, I am still not clearly convinced
about what I wrote myself. Maybe somebody else does understand it, or
can explain it better. This could just help the discussion.
I see the problem here, and it's difficult to explain, nor do I find the
right words. It's surely something with this "causing" and also
"direct/indirect object" which I do understand, but cannot explain.
In english it also works that way:
The velwI' covers the floor.
He covers the floor with the carpet.
The carpet on the floor is covering it.
I see two meanings in this word:
a) what a person does when laying a carpet
(a moving action, cover the floor)
b) what the carpet/blanket does on a floor/table
(a static situation, cover the floor)
Only context will show what is meant.
>> From Marc's email it's clear that the carpet {vel}s the floor.
Correct.
> *causes* the carpet to {vel} the floor, can they not be said to {velmoH} the
> carpet to the floor, using an ordinary causative?
I agree with that, grammatically.
But I prefer to stick to the example we have. I don't know what MO's
intention was, but why would he write this the way he did it?
>>>>>>
To say "lay a carpet," one says "use a carpet to cover the floor," or
{rav velmeH tlhIm lo'}.
<<<<<<
> Harry Potter magically causing the carpet to cover the floor isn't different
> to making the carpet cover the floor in an ordinary mundane way. They're just
> two different means of achieving the same action, aren't they?
Grmbl...mh..yes, bad example, ignore it ;-)
>> mInDu'lIj vIvel jIH. bIH vIvelmeH ghopwIj vIlo'.
>
> Given the example of {rav vel tlhIm}, I'd have thought {bIH velmeH} "in order
> that they [my hands] cover them" would be better.
I see your point, but it is "I" who am covering it, using my hands;
adapting the right prefixes on the example:
{rav velmeH tlhIm lo'}
{rav vIvelmeH tlhIm vIlo'}
But we are probably both right, since it is also my hands which are
covering the eyes, it depends on which kind of cover you think.
Lieven.
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